The Gun Control Thread

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  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49136

    The Gun Control Thread

    This deserves it's own thread me thinks!

    License to Kill
    How the GOP helped John Allen Muhammad get a sniper rifle.


    By Brent Kendall

    Bull's Eye Shooter Supply is a warehouse-sized gun store near the waterfront in Tacoma, Wash. Boasting the Puget Sound's largest selection of firearms and ammunition, the store is a mecca for area sportsmen, who come to browse the latest hunting rifles or practice their marksmanship at the store's 12-lane shooting range. An outside wall of the store bears a hand-painted mural depicting lions, elephants, cheetahs, and water buffaloes. Some of the store's firearms, however, have felled more than big game.

    One such gun was a .223-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster XM15 rifle, which Bull's Eye received from the manufacturer on July 2 of last year. On Sept. 21, a bullet from that gun blew through the back of a liquor store manager in Montgomery, Ala. (she died in the emergency room soon after). Two days later, another bullet burrowed through the head of a beauty store manager in Baton Rouge, La., who died instantly. Between Oct. 2-3, bullets from the gun ripped through the bodies of six people in Montgomery County, Md., killing all of them. Over the next three weeks, the gun claimed seven more victims--including a bus driver, a female FBI analyst, and a 13-year-old schoolboy--killing four of them. Finally, on Oct. 24, law enforcement authorities found the Bushmaster in the back seat of a blue Chevy Caprice occupied by John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.

    Exactly how the gun got into the men's hands remains something of a mystery. Muhammad was banned by federal law from purchasing any gun because of a restraining order obtained by his ex-wife; his ineligibility would have shown up during the Brady background check that gun stores are required to run on potential buyers. Malvo was ineligible because he was a juvenile and an illegal immigrant. Bull's Eye has no record of selling the weapon, much less conducting a background check on Muhammad or Malvo for it. Bull's Eye employees have reported seeing Malvo at the store this summer, and later noticed the Bushmaster was not in its display case. But the store did not file the federally required theft report. When the store's owner, Brian Borgelt, was questioned by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), the federal agency charged with enforcing the nation's gun laws, he claimed not to have known the gun was missing until authorities traced it back to his store. Two weeks after the sniper suspects' arrests, he filed the theft report with the police and ATF.

    This wasn't the first time that Bull's Eye was caught unable to account for deadly firearms that had passed through its doors. ATF inspectors, armed with data showing that weapons used in crimes had originated from Borgelt's store, audited it three times between 1998 and 2001, and found record-keeping irregularities each time. An audit in 2000 revealed that Borgelt could not account, through sales records, for 160 guns. Being unable to account for the whereabouts of even one-fifth that many weapons would be alarming, according to former ATF agents, even for a store the size of Bull's Eye. Moreover, Borgelt hadn't filed personal income tax returns since 1995 and hadn't filed some business tax forms since 1994--this despite $1.5 million in store bank deposits.

    Yet despite all the warning signs, ATF didn't shut the store down. It didn't suspend Bull's Eye's license, or put it on probation. It didn't even administer a fine--not one $5 ticket to let the store know that the bureau meant business. Two years later, a $1,600 sniper rifle seems to have disappeared from the store like a pack of M&Ms from a convenience mart, surfacing 3,000 miles away in one of the biggest killing sprees in American history--oh, and one more thing: Bull's Eye is still open for business.

    In the wake of September 11, the CIA, FBI, and INS have all been picked apart for failing to act on information that might have prevented the terrorist attacks. So far, there has been no similar call for investigating ATF, even though experts worry that Muhammad--a member of the Nation of Islam who reportedly considered America a terrorist state--may inspire al Qaeda or other terrorist groups to conduct similar attacks with easily obtained sniper rifles.

    But there's a reason you won't see anyone investigating ATF: Its failings are the direct result of actions by the Republican politicians who now control both houses of Congress. At the behest of the National Rifle Association (NRA), GOP lawmakers (and some conservative Democrats) have saddled the bureau with so many legal restrictions that it has little practical power to deter sellers from allowing weapons to flow to criminals. ATF could have cracked down harder on Bull's Eye, but its lack of aggressiveness was precisely what GOP lawmakers had intended. Pro-gun-control Democrats could have made an issue last fall of how Muhammad obtained a sniper rifle, but they remained silent in the face of feared retribution at the polls by the NRA. Now, as the minority party, Democrats have little power to investigate anything, even if they wanted to.

    Convenient Lack of Suspicion

    Every year, more than 200,000 guns used in crimes are traced back to licensed gun dealers like Bull's Eye. Some are originally purchased by law-abiding citizens and later stolen. Others get sold (inadvertently) by dealers to "straw purchasers" who don't have criminal records but are acting as fronts for criminals. In many other cases, however, gun dealers eager to make an extra buck simply sell firearms to anyone who wants them, skipping background checks and falsifying paperwork to cover their tracks.

    Of the 83,000 retail firearms dealers in America, ATF shuts down only about 25 annually. These are the most egregious wrongdoers, dealers caught red-handed fencing stolen weapons or openly selling large numbers of firearms to criminals. Yet these few cases account for only a fraction of the guns that flow to criminals from licensed dealers. The bigger problem stems from hundreds of other dealers who, through laziness, sloppy inventory control, convenient lack of suspicion, or under-the-table shenanigans, wind up arming criminals.

    It is these dealers that ATF has virtually no power to control. Though it can shut a dealer down permanently--a fitting punishment only in egregious cases--ATF has no power to temporarily suspend a dealer's license, or impose a fine--steps that might remind a dealer to be vigilant about sales rules. Nor can it audit a gun dealer more than once a year, a rule that assures crooked dealers 364 days to do uninterrupted business. And because of dubious judicial precedent, the bureau's agents can't get a dealer charged with selling to a felon by going undercover and posing as felons.

    Worse still, from a law-enforcement perspective, is the fact that federal law treats all record-keeping errors by gun dealers as, at most, misdemeanors--even in cases where ATF can prove that a dealer falsified records. This makes it practically impossible to bring gun dealers to court for record-keeping violations, since federal prosecutors, already burdened with more felony cases than they can litigate, usually don't accept misdemeanor referrals.

    You'll be hard pressed to find another federal agency that, charged with enforcing laws dealing with legal but potentially dangerous products, must operate under similar handicaps. The Drug Enforcement Administration, which monitors the illegal diversion of prescription drugs, can pursue felony charges against a pharmacy for record-keeping problems; temporarily suspend the license of a problematic pharmacy; and when it has evidence of wrongdoing, mount an undercover approach to determine if a doctor is writing bogus prescriptions or if a pharmacist is illegally dispensing controlled substances. Even the Department of Agriculture, which is notoriously emasculated when it comes to enforcing federal standards, can, after a major food poisoning incident, temporarily stop production at an unsanitary meat packing plant, fine the plant, and re-visit for a new round of inspections in six months.

    Reagan's Political Trifecta

    Washington has been trying to keep deadly weapons out of criminal hands for almost seven decades. In 1934, alarmed by the violence of organized criminals like Al Capone, Congress passed the nation's first gun-control law, which gave the Treasury Department the power to tax and require owner registration of "gangster-type weapons." In 1938, it passed another measure requiring gun manufacturers and dealers to obtain federal licenses and banning the sale of firearms to known criminals. Thirty years later, in response to rising crime rates and the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King Jr., the federal government clamped down further with passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Among other things, this law mandated that sellers keep transaction records and prohibited felons, illegal aliens, and a few other categories of people from buying or possessing firearms. In 1972, Treasury designated ATF as a separate agency in the department.

    The NRA vehemently opposed the 1968 legislation, which marked the beginning of the association's transformation from its more traditional focus on training sportsmen in gun safety into the anti-enforcement, lobbying superpower we know today. Since 1968, the association has increasingly devoted more resources to waging political fights, and has constantly lobbied to minimize the power of ATF, often breathing fire when speaking of it. During the 1970s as ATF stepped up its policing of gun dealers, the NRA fought back, portraying ATF agents as "jack-booted fascists" and arguing that efforts targeting gun stores and their customers were nothing more than harassment. After all, the NRA argued, criminals don't get their guns from gun stores; they steal them from law-abiding gun-owners.

    At the end of the decade, the NRA found a big friend in Ronald Reagan. By being anti-ATF and supporting gun dealers, Reagan could demonstrate that he was pro-gun, pro-small business, and anti-federal regulation--the perfect trifecta for a conservative Republican. The Gipper promised to eliminate ATF, and once in office he moved to make the pledge good. When the NRA reversed its position, fearing that a proposed merger with the Secret Service would make federal firearms authority politically untouchable, Reagan backed the NRA in substituting deregulation for reorganization, signing the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which significantly curtailed ATF's enforcement powers against the firearms industry. The law limited the number of times ATF could conduct a compliance audit on a gun dealer to once a year. More importantly, it reduced all record-keeping violations--no matter whether there was one violation or a thousand, and no matter if records were falsified--to misdemeanors, thus entirely removing the threat that ATF could pursue felony charges against dealers flouting record-keeping laws and selling guns to prohibited persons under the table.

    Gunning for Reform

    Bill Clinton's election began to change the landscape in two ways. First, in 1993 the administration passed, against stiff GOP opposition, the Brady law, which required gun dealers to run background checks on all buyers. The next year, it pushed through Congress legislation banning most new assault-style weapons and prohibiting juveniles from possessing handguns. The NRA responded by declaring war on the president and the Democratic Party. The Democrats lost their majorities in both houses of Congress that year; most political experts credit NRA campaign efforts with several key GOP victories.

    By 1995, however, the Brady law was beginning to show results. In its first year, it had blocked 40,000 attempts to purchase firearms by criminals, juveniles, and other prohibited persons--evidence that in fact many criminals were looking to gun stores for their firepower. Beginning the next year, the Clinton administration directed ATF to work with local law enforcement to expand the tracing of guns recovered by police, and to invest in new tracing technologies. As a result, ATF discovered that tens of thousands of crime guns actually flowed from licensed retail dealers and pawnbrokers to the streets. Moreover, most of the guns flowed primarily from a small minority of dealers--just 1.2 percent of dealers accounted for 57 percent of those crime gun tracings (ATF shuts down only about one in 40 of these per year).

    Believe it or not, these were stunning discoveries, and they demonstrably proved that, despite decades of NRA propaganda, gun stores do play a major role in supplying criminals with guns.

    Responding to the information, the White House won big increases in ATF's enforcement and inspector ranks. But to really deter licensed sellers from violating federal laws--as opposed to just arresting them after guns hit the streets--ATF needed powers to encourage compliance: the ability to levy fines, suspend licenses, audit when necessary, and charge dealers with felony record-keeping violations when appropriate. The Clinton administration and a few lone voices in Congress, especially Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), pushed legislation to give ATF this new authority while also requiring background checks at gun shows.

    A string of high-school shootings, which peaked with the catastrophe at Columbine High School, gave the legislation enough momentum to narrowly pass the Senate in 1999, with Vice President Al Gore providing a tie-breaking vote. The House passed a weaker version of the Senate bill, and the measure died when efforts to reconcile the two versions went nowhere. Gore's highly publicized vote, according to many political analyses, was a major factor in his loss of West Virginia's five electoral votes in the 2000 election.

    In theory, the sniper shootings should have been an occasion to raise again the issue of ATF's limited enforcement powers against dealers supplying criminals with guns. But while debates have raged about whether congressionally imposed restraints on the CIA and the FBI contributed to those agencies' failures to foresee impending terrorist activity, few have asked about similar restraints that might have kept ATF from preventing the terror on the East Coast--even if it had usable information. And it's pretty obvious why. Republicans, as the architects of the current regulatory system, are directly responsible for ATF's limited powers. Democrats, still smarting from the drubbings they took in 1994 and 2000, are understandably nervous about stirring up the gun issue, even though the sniper shootings happened in the thick of an election cycle and captured nationwide attention.

    Other than in a few scattered newspaper editorials, the issue of ATF enforcement has stayed off the public radar screen. By and large, people have little clue just what the laws are, and they have no idea how toothless ATF is when it comes to policing gun dealers. Even government lawyers don't know how hamstrung the bureau is. "I've sat in rooms of federal prosecutors--career prosecutors--and ATF people are explaining to them, 'This is the way firearms commerce is governed,'" says David Kennedy, a senior researcher in criminal justice policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, "and the prosecutors don't believe them. It's surreal."

    Had ATF been vested with sensible enforcement powers, the world might never have heard of John Allen Muhammad or John Lee Malvo. Had a few political fights turned out differently, the bureau would have been able to fine Bull's Eye for its previous violations, suspend its operations, or pursue felony record-keeping charges. Had the NRA and GOP not worked together to cripple the federal government's ability to enforce gun laws, bullets from that Bushmaster rifle might not have ended the lives of 10 people along the Interstate 95 corridor. Yet despite the dead, the wounded, and the terrified, little has changed politically. If horrors such as these can't spark public scrutiny and political outrage, it's hard to understand what will.

    Yup! Wouldn't want to "enforce the laws on the books" as is so much vaunted in NRA propaganda! I mean why restrict our absolutionist personal sense of entitlement so we can go, oh say, fill up our tank with gas without getting fucking shot!? NEVER!

    BTW, I am a Republican and a gun owner!
  • FORD
    ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

    • Jan 2004
    • 58759

    #2
    Bullseye should have been permanently shut down for that shit. I know exactly where that store is. There's iron bars on the doors and windows. Nobody broke in that store and stole a weapon, and I seriously doubt that John Muhammad was able to stick a rifle down his pants and walk out the door with it.

    My theory has always been that it was a cash sale "under the table" with a nice bonus thrown in for the employee who didn't report the sale.

    And if that's proven to be the case, that employee should be on trial as an acessory to 10 murders.

    The gun show idiots responsible for putting weapons into the hands of Harris & Klebold at Columbine should be tried as well, even though it's probably going to be tough to prosecute a case where the primary suspects are dead.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

    Comment

    • Nickdfresh
      SUPER MODERATOR

      • Oct 2004
      • 49136

      #3
      I've just always gotten' pissed when I hear the 'jack-booted thug' bullshit!

      Comment

      • Nitro Express
        DIAMOND STATUS
        • Aug 2004
        • 32797

        #4
        I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

        Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

        I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

        An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

        I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

        It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

        We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

        Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

        Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.
        No! You can't have the keys to the wine cellar!

        Comment

        • Nickdfresh
          SUPER MODERATOR

          • Oct 2004
          • 49136

          #5
          Originally posted by Nitro Express
          I have a BATF Curio and Relic firearms license. It allows me to purchase firearms labeled as curio and relic through the mail on the condition that I don't resell or redistribute the firearm and keep it in my collection only.

          Well the BATF contacted me one day and wanted to check my log book I'm required to keep and see if it matches my inventory in my gun collection. The BATF agent was a beautiful blonde who frankly can come back to my house anytime she wants.

          I'm just a little collector and I got audited, funny that a huge firearms dealer could be so sloppy.

          An AR-15 isn't a true sniper rifle though. Certain AR-15's are very accurate but the .223 fires a very small .22 caliber bullet and is not the best for long-range shooting or penetration. It can make devistating wounds at shorter ranges. Real snipers are highly trained proffesionals who use match grade rifles (usually bolt action) and special ammunition. Muhammad was just a fuck with an over the counter semi-automatic magizine fed rifle. Anyone on this website with a little target practice could do what he or Malvo did. Not too many of us could do what a real sniper is capable of.

          I guess it's the same old story. We have plenty of laws but can't enforce them. Illegal immigrants run across the border, illegal drugs come in, people don't pay their taxes, CEO's cook the books ect.

          It's not a perfect world and if someone wants a gun bad enough, they will get one. I think a lot of these disturbed people don't care if they live or die. Our fucking society is going nuts and I have no answer for you on that one.

          We could put all the gun manufactures out of business and stop the importation of guns but how to you get the ones still in the country? Even if we ignored the US Constitution and searched peoples homes with a gestapo like police we would not get all the guns.

          Don't forget people can make their own weapons. It's easier than ever with the new CNC milling machines. In Israel, they had a firearms manufacturing opperation underneath the laundry mat. The washing machines and dryers covered up the machine noise. Downstairs in a hidden shop submachine guns were being manufactured.

          Who's to say a terrorist sleeper cell isn't just buying the machinery and the raw materials to make weapons in some hidden factory somewhere. The blue prints for such weapons are widely available. All you need is some machinists and the tools. Nobody would have any idea of what's going on.
          You make some valid points, but a scoped/accurarized AR-15/M-16A2 fires a 5.56mm round at about 1000 meters/per second, and can hit targets out to 600 or 800 meters. Accurarized versions were used by the military as intermediate, semi-auto sniper rifles ( I think they've gone back to heavier M-10/M-21 type weapons).

          But the point is, why is this gun store still open? And what if a college kid decides to buy a dozen weapons for Al-Qaida operatives?

          And finally, you cannot dismiss the statistics of 11,000+ gun deaths in the US per year.

          Comment

          • Nitro Express
            DIAMOND STATUS
            • Aug 2004
            • 32797

            #6
            Yeah, I'm aware that they shoot the 5.56 round out that far and I'm amazed the wind doesn't blow that little bullet off target more. People at my local gun club shoot accurized AR-15's. But a real sniper is going to use something heavier in my book.

            Shit, you would have thought the IRS would have shut the store down for not paying taxes. The problem with the gun battle in the US is each side is very radicle. One side wants to take all the guns and one side wants every type of firearm to be legal. Each side tottaly distrusts the other and there isn't going to be any compromise. So the politics gets dirty. you may have a real point on what's going on. Personaly I think that store should be closed down.

            Another problem is the 2nd Amendment in the US Bill of Rights, everyone interprets that different. I mean if you try and grab the guns, you are going to stir up a war. You will piss off so many Timothy McViegh types you would have another terrorist type war going on. I think the states should make their own gun laws and the federal govt. should stay out of it.

            Like I said, we are becoming more of a divided country on many issues. If you like more of a liberal lifestyle and more gun regulation, California is the place for you or maybe New York.

            This gun debate like abortion has gone on forever and will continue to go on. There are plenty of places to live with real strict gun laws in the world.

            Guns are just part of American culture and will continue to be. It's a cultural thing and some may think it's stupid but it's there and will always be there. What's funny is both the liberals and conservatives distrust authority. Right wingers don't want gun regulation because they don't trust the govt. Left wing environmentalists don't trust big oil companies or Bush appointed EPA secretaries. It really boils down to a distrust of authority and that makes any negotiation impossible.

            There's a lot of gun owners who in a real sense would welcome higher saftey measures, regulation but they don't trust the system. That's the real problem. They are afraid if it's once in some data base, then they can become targets later on as the people in power change. People in Germany could own firearms and then Hitler made gun registration manditory. The govt. later paid you a vistit and asked for your gun.

            I guess many Americans are willing to tollerate some gun deaths over the potential of opening pandoras box to loosing their right to bear arms. It's been that way for a long time and isn't going to change anytime soon.
            No! You can't have the keys to the wine cellar!

            Comment

            • Nickdfresh
              SUPER MODERATOR

              • Oct 2004
              • 49136

              #7


              Bulletproof gun industry
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Legislation would protect manufacturers, dealers no matter how negligent they are

              4/15/2005
              In most cases, a responsible gun dealer - or manufacturer, for that matter - should not be at risk for what a customer does with a firearm. But that common-sense policy is being stood on its head by an irrational bill about to be taken up by Congress.

              The legislation essentially handcuffs the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and makes it harder to sue gun dealers and manufacturers. The bill, introduced by Idaho Republican Sen. Larry Craig and Rep. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla., virtually makes the gun industry bulletproof even when negligence on the part of dealers or manufacturers results in death.

              The bill would quash all lawsuits against the gun industry, except where there is absolute evidence that the gun dealer knowingly broke the law. The problem, of course, is knowing what's in a person's mind. The bill essentially would give almost blanket protection against gun makers and dealers from suits seeking damages.

              Gun advocates contend the legislation would prevent frivolous lawsuits. They further maintain that laws already on the books prohibit illegal activity. Every retail gun sale, for example, has to undergo an FBI background check.

              We don't see a problem with protecting dealers from broad class-action lawsuits based solely on what someone does with a gun purchased from a responsible dealer. But this bill would also protect irresponsible dealers.

              In addition to stopping cities and states from filing lawsuits against the gun industry, it would preclude civil lawsuits like the ones filed by the families of the victims of the Washington, D.C., snipers, who used a rifle that was among the 283 guns "lost" by a Tacoma gun dealer over a three-year period. When was the last time a retailer lost 283 of anything? Yet this bill would protect that dealer from lawsuits.

              This misguided legislation could end up harming gun users themselves. A hunter, for example, would not be able to sue even if a poorly made gun blew up in his face.

              This page has no problem with Americans owning guns. But we do have a problem with gun advocates who block any legitimate effort to make sure guns don't get into the wrong hands.

              According to FBI and state records, 35 people whose names appeared on terrorism watch lists were permitted to buy guns. That's how surreal the situation has become. It seems there is no limit to efforts to protect anybody and everybody involved in the manufacture and sale of firearms.

              This legislation is another in a long litany of efforts to prevent any gun legislation that would increase public safety. President Bush signed a law in January 2004 to allow the government to destroy all records from background checks of gun purchasers after 24 hours. Of course, dealers at gun shows in most states can sell their wares without a background check.

              Gun advocates view any limits on gun sales or liability for negligence as an assault on their rights as citizens. That is far from the case.

              What this bill would do is give the gun industry the kind of immunity enjoyed by no other industry. It does not deserve passage.

              Comment

              • yamaha86tt350
                Roth Army Recruit
                • Aug 2004
                • 19

                #8
                What?

                im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them. u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/re...s3.3Screen.pdf
                and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault? FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless. i strongly suggest all of u listen to what Diamond DLR has to say on the radio on monday and tuesday here on the site. maybe it will open ur eyes up. DLR is the man listen and learn from what he has to say and check out the site above.
                Hey man, dont be squirtin water at me, Im gona fuck your girlfriend....Pal.

                Comment

                • yamaha86tt350
                  Roth Army Recruit
                  • Aug 2004
                  • 19

                  #9
                  i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted
                  Hey man, dont be squirtin water at me, Im gona fuck your girlfriend....Pal.

                  Comment

                  • Nickdfresh
                    SUPER MODERATOR

                    • Oct 2004
                    • 49136

                    #10
                    Re: What?

                    Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
                    im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time, if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them....
                    Heheheh...very funny sentence, thanks! Care to actually debate some of the facts of the first article in this thread? No, you really can't can you?

                    Comment

                    • Nickdfresh
                      SUPER MODERATOR

                      • Oct 2004
                      • 49136

                      #11
                      Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
                      i also hate to inform u but terrorists don't really use small arms at all in attacks they prefer to use car bombs and air planes in case u didn't figure that out already............just look at the website i posted
                      Yup! Can't fly on an airliner but little Achmed can sure still buy his Chinese made AKM knock-off!


                      Tell that to the families who lost their loved ones in the D.C. Sniper case...I bet they were pretty terrorized!

                      Comment

                      • FORD
                        ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                        • Jan 2004
                        • 58759

                        #12
                        Re: What?

                        [QUOTE]Originally posted by yamaha86tt350
                        im not even gona sit and read all this shit its probably a waste of my time

                        Obviously. In your case, spelling a three letter word is a "waste of ur time"

                        if u really want to know facts and not what uneducated people, who don't know the REAL facts and have probably never handled a gun or even know anything about them except for what they see in the movies think. these are the type of people who know nothing besides what CNN or whatever propaganda they watch is feeding them.

                        Unlike "u" who gets all "ur" propaganda from FAUX, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent records.

                        u want to know the FACTS and how it really is these aren't from the NRA or any thing just facts taken directly from the BATF, FBI, and other agencies and organizations pro and anti gun.check out this site http://www.freedomunderground.org/re...s3.3Screen.pdf

                        I checked out the site, and it turns out the guy who runs it is such an extremist that he was banned from the extremist website "Free Republic". If even RimJob thinks this guy's a wacko extremist, I ain't taking his word for shit. Let alone his illiterate toady.

                        and for this lawsuit shit u should just stop talking u have no idea what ur talking about u obviously haven't read up on whats really goin on and what its really for. your way off base.if u think people should be able to sue companies for acts of criminals or people for that matter than I plan to sue GM b/c someone in a GM truck T-Boned me last year. is it GMs fault?

                        It could be. If the brakes or the steering failed on the truck, and that was the cause of the accident, then the company should be liable.

                        FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

                        Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

                        just like its not remington's fault when some 17 yr old gets one of their guns from his home boy down the street.

                        No, that would be the fault of an irresponsible gun owner, whether it was a redneck militia fuck who sold a gun to a kid at a gun show, or a homeowner who was too goddamn stupid to lock up his weapons in a gun safe.

                        its the people that are causing the problem not the inanimate object. over 3/4 of guns used in crime are obtained illegally for one and for two what do u want to do make more laws? i hate to tell u but all the laws in the world aren't gona stop a kid from getting a gun from his pal. its already illegal for a kid under 18 to have a gun so why don't u put more effort into strictly enforcing the damn laws now b/c making more wont do shit its just that many more that are gona be violated. u can make all the laws in the world but if u don't enforce them correctly its pointless.

                        Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter.
                        Eat Us And Smile

                        Cenk For America 2024!!

                        Justice Democrats


                        "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                        Comment

                        • Nickdfresh
                          SUPER MODERATOR

                          • Oct 2004
                          • 49136

                          #13
                          Re: Re: What?

                          Originally posted by FORD
                          Actually, I'd like to see a law passed that requires a 3-digit IQ before you can touch a computer. OR a gun. Stupid illiterate people shouldn't be allowed to touch either one. Or a ballot for that matter. [/B]

                          Comment

                          • weesfreewheelin
                            Roadie
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 118

                            #14
                            Re: Re: What?

                            Originally posted by FORD


                            FUCK NO, GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

                            Nice overused slogan. But people with guns kill much easier than people without guns.

                            . [/B]
                            I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet

                            Comment

                            • FORD
                              ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                              • Jan 2004
                              • 58759

                              #15
                              Re: Re: Re: What?

                              Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
                              I'm glad the kid who clocked his buddy with the baseball bat didn't have a gun That goddamn worthless coach should have had that bat locked up in a bat cabinet
                              A sports team keeping their equipment in a locker in between games is a completely reasonable practice.
                              Eat Us And Smile

                              Cenk For America 2024!!

                              Justice Democrats


                              "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                              Comment

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