Who REALLY wrote the vocal melodies - Dave or Ed?

[dave_is_vh]

Who REALLY wrote the vocal melodies - Dave or Ed?

I was always under the impression that Ed wrote the music and Dave wrote the vocal melodies and lyrics.

But I recently read that Ed once adamantly told someone that Ed and only Ed wrote ALL of the vocal melodies.

What is the real story? Did Ed really write ALL of the vocal melodies?

[ELVIS]

Dude, nobody wrote anything...

EVH can barely write his own name...

Classic Van Halen was shaped and molded to perfection like fine clay...

Alex used to hate that Dave would come into the studio with nothing and start improvising shit on the spot...

But rest assured that David Lee Roth came up with the vast majority of, if not all of the seven pack's vocal attributes, including melodies and harmonies...

EVH is arguably the best rock guitarist who ever lived, but he's a piss poor historian...

So is his sister...


:elvis:

[sadaist]

I know Eddie changed the chorus from Dance Lolita Dance to Dance the Night Away. But other than a few minor suggestions here & there it was all Dave. That is clear by both of their work after 1985 and seeing who the cool lyrics & melodies went with.

[Seshmeister]

Dave clearly wrote the melodies which is the most important part of the song and why Van Halen with Hagar became a completely different band.

Ed liked to call that 'writing the lyrics' as a way to belittle Roth or whichever singer he was moaning about.

That said I'm pretty sure that Ed wrote the vocal melody to 'How Many Say I?' himself which tells you all you need to know...

[VHscraps]

Dave.

It's why Ed + Hagar sounded like ... Van Hagar.

[Seshmeister]

And Ed + Cherone sounded like shit...

[Cato]

Dave added the lyrics and melodies to Mike Hartman's instrumental tune "Stomp" and it became to "King Of The Hill".

this is his way to create his music I think?

[Seshmeister]

You only have to listen to Ripley and then Blood and Fire to see just how good Roth is at writing a vocal melody to music.

Or another example I give is imagine Jump but with the vocal melody following the keyboard line at the chorus and just how horrific that would be.

The producer on ADKOT John Shanks put it well.


As a musician, producer and songwriter, can you share some observations about their writing and recording processes?

I’ll use “Hot For Teacher” as an example of why Dave is great, because until people really get to know the new album, it’s hard to explain his magic. Think about “Hot For Teacher.” You have the big hammer-on intro, then you have the guitar part, then down to the John Lee Hooker kind of guitar part. Now, I’m guessing here that when Eddie came up with that, he probably assumed that’s where the verse would start. Most singers, when they hear that, would have started singing right there. Not Dave. What Dave does is, “What do you think the teacher’s going to look like this year,” and then it goes into another section and he starts the vocal. Again, most writers would have written that as the B section. Dave sees that as the verse. Dave goes over barre lines and looks at things completely originally, more than most songwriters.

The way I correlate Dave — there’s a similarity almost to the way Stevie Nicks writes. Stevie writes over barre lines and her verses continue over where you think they would go to this section, but they don’t. She’s like a poet. Stevie writes poems, and Dave writes in a very similar way, where he’s going over sections of songs so it’s not cookie-cutter. Analytically, when you break it down as a songwriter, the way Dave writes sometimes is outside the box, or as he says, it’s “off book.” He has these parameters, and he bends and morphs them to accommodate his ideas, not only melodically but lyrically as well. That’s hard to do, especially in a context of the material he’s working off of. It’s more beat poetry or jazz; it’s more that kind of thing. It’s more R&B.

Dave thinks outside of the box. To see that process was to see what he goes through to create that. He goes through his process trying to find melodies and counterpoints. What I came away with was the brilliance of Dave, which is like the brilliance of Eddie, but in a completely different way, but they complement each other, and then the brilliance of Alex and Wolf. You’ve got to give Wolf credit to walk in there and be the new guy in the band. I’m really proud of Wolf. He’s a badass and he’s a great player. He’s a musicologist and he’s a historian in regards to the band, too, suggesting, “We should play this song,” We should play that song,” “The fans want to hear that.” He’s really amazing. And Alex is an unbelievable drummer.

There were times when we were tracking when I would watch — Eddie and Wolf play in the control room, so I’m sitting between the two of them, and through the glass we’re all watching Alex. They’re so locked in, there’s synchronicity, and you have Wolf now, so there’s this blood connection. There were definitely a couple of times when they were playing and they’re so in the zone and listening to each other so intensely that you get emotional because it’s so real. It was truly a thing to watch, to be a witness to, and to be part of. I’m grateful for that. And then adding Dave, it’s like the pieces of a puzzle that just fit together.

Dave is an artist. He’s like any great artist in the sense that when the motor is running and he’s in his zone, it’s pretty wild. He’s not the same person he was on 1984 or on his solo records. He walks in with these journals of writing. He has a plethora of lyrics that he filters down into their essence in order to put them on the song. This record showcases Eddie, Wolf and Alex, but it really showcases Dave in a different way than when he was younger. He’s in a different place in his life, so it’s a collective of what works for the way he sings now and the way he writes now. He’s bringing his life experiences to this. It’s a different time in his life, and his sarcasm and double entendres and wry sense of humor really come across on this record. It did in the past, but [for example] that “1-800 tell me, baby” [“The Trouble With Never”] was an ad-lib in the moment. It’s like an actor doing the same scene over and over, and every time, a great actor will tweak it and take it to the next level. Dave, when he’s in that place, will do that. It was wild to watch. Even in “Tattoo,” there’s that cool little ad lib before the last chorus, and the way he hits it was definitely in the moment and spontaneous. It wasn’t pre-planned. It was someone who’s on his game, present and working off the moment, and boom, that happens. He’s feeling the music. Some of those ad-libs and lyrical hooks he might have in his bag of tricks, but the way he applies them is what makes Dave “Diamond Dave.” It’s wild to see when he’s in his zone.



Read more: http://www.vhnd.com/2012/04/03/interview-john-shanks-discusses-producing-van-halens-new-album-a-different-kind-of-truth/#ixzz2WBIk1XFQ

[binnie]

Dave clearly wrote the melodies. No-one else could have, they're so idiosyncratic.

[DLR Bridge]

In a Guitar World from '85, Ed lauded Dave's ability to stick lyrics to just about anything he gave him. I can't quite imagine Ed, during the 6 pack times, ever saying "sing it like this". His absolute control freak streak kicked in probably somewhere around '95 when he first sobered up a bit and was no longer affraid to say to Sammy, "what is this shit??"

I wouldn't doubt that Ted helped Dave mold some of the delivery of certain lines or parts of songs. Producers do that. There's a fine line between being meddlesome and a creative assistant. For example, listen to the club days version of In A Simple Rhyme. Dave's all over the place (he was also quite new to the game). The recorded version released 5 or 6 years later was dramatically refined and melodic.

[VHscraps]

You only have to listen to Ripley and then Blood and Fire to see just how good Roth is at writing a vocal melody to music.

Or another example I give is imagine Jump but with the vocal melody following the keyboard line at the chorus and just how horrific that would be.

The producer on ADKOT John Shanks put it well.

Yeah, and if you listen to the mashump of Jump with John Lennon's 'Imagine' - i.e., with no Eddie music or VH rhythm track - it is clear that the lyrics and vocal melody on their own are pretty much a song.

Of course, I guess that Dave came up with that specifically to fit with Ed's music and the chord changes, verses, bridge etc - but it still gives you a good idea of what Dave brough to the table.

And, that reminds me - while people who rag on Dave's vocal abilities have often said Hagar was a "better singer" than Dave, on those occasions where Hagar sang Dave-era tunes, it seemed to me that he could not sing them throughout correctly in terms of the meldody. I don't think it was only a matter of him doing it half-assed, but more likely Dave-type melodies were pretty alien to his way of singing.

That's leaving aside the fact, if the evidence of the last tour is anything to go by, that Dave also seems to ave forgotten how to sing some of his own melodies, and approaches them as if they were stange tunes written by some other guy.

[DLR Bridge]

Good point about Simpleton Hagar. Since pairing with Satriani, he's gone on record as saying Ed couldn't write songs, only riffs and ideas, and while that may bs partially true, it is clear he had far less of a clue how to deal with melody making than Dave. Sammy's comfort zone is crap like Feels So Good. If Ed had handed him stuff like Sinner's Swing, he'd be completely lost.

[VetteLS5]

If Ed had handed him stuff like Sinner's Swing, he'd be completely lost.

Yeah, "the menace is loose again" isn't in the fat boy's lyrical playbook, for sure.

[ELVIS]

This is...:biggrin:




:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Hey, I'm kinda digging that song...:biggrin:

[ELVIS]

Kinda got a Black Betty quality to it...

Not bad for Hagar...

[ELVIS]

Did he say "if you like dicks" ??

WTF ??

[ELVIS]

I think he says kicks, but it sounds like ooh, If you like dicks, just take her to the floor...:biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

Good point about Simpleton Hagar. Since pairing with Satriani, he's gone on record as saying Ed couldn't write songs, only riffs and ideas, and while that may bs partially true, it is clear he had far less of a clue how to deal with melody making than Dave. Sammy's comfort zone is crap like Feels So Good. If Ed had handed him stuff like Sinner's Swing, he'd be completely lost.

True or Ripley for that matter.

I expected Chickenfoot to be average with good guitar solos but I wouldn't be listening to them because I don't like the sound of Hagar's voice very much.

I was genuinely surprised at just how really bad the songs that band wrote were so it seems that Van Halen still lifted him a little from shit to mediocre.

[Satan]

Good point about Simpleton Hagar. Since pairing with Satriani, he's gone on record as saying Ed couldn't write songs, only riffs and ideas, and while that may bs partially true, it is clear he had far less of a clue how to deal with melody making than Dave. Sammy's comfort zone is crap like Feels So Good. If Ed had handed him stuff like Sinner's Swing, he'd be completely lost.

As much as I hate to give Cheddy the Clown credit for anything, it's hard to say he's wrong here.....

The main problem with VDIII (apart from the wrong singer) was that there was no coherent song structure. Van Hagar may have had a lot of cheesy shit songs, but at least they were well constructed cheesy shit. I imagine Sam thinks it's easier to write with Satriani, because Joe made his own records (mostly instrumental) for over 20 years, so he's capable of constructing a song on his own. There's a reason why Eddie Van Halen never made an instrumental solo album. He probably couldn't write one.

[DLR Bridge]

Structure is only important if your looking for a hit. Some of my favorite songs are all over the place. Perhaps, Ed had more of his progressive roots in mind when he did VHIII. Some of those songs Dave would have done just fine with. Others were more experimental. Had it been an actual solo instrumental CD, I would have probably enjoyed it.

[Satan]

Well.... it's Van Halen, not "The Grateful Ed".....

A band that established themselves making albums that were under 40 minutes long suddenly turning into a jam band would have been a bit weird.....

Hell, even the Dead eventually figured out the secret there..... you go into the studio and record a song like "Friend of the Devil" (one of my favorites, of course) and make it a simple 3 minute song, and then you go out on the road and stretch it out to 7, 8, 10, 12 minutes - based on whatever the mushrooms tell you to do on that particular evilning.

I actually would love to see VH reinterpret some of the old classics on stage and do some extended jams on the material.

(and no, that shit that Hagar did to "Panama" is not what I had in mind!)

[DLR Bridge]

Agreed. That's why the solo album route would have worked out considerably better for Grateful Ed.

What, Sammy interjecting banalities about "right now" wanna-be-heady type bullshit in the middle of one of the most infectious, up beat summertime songs ever didn't suit you? Ne meither!! :yo:

[Dan]

Dave Did,End Of Story.:D

[vaijuju]

The answer : Eat em' and smile!!!!

[Terry]

What it comes down to is what others in the thread have already said: one need do little more than think of the stuff the band did when Roth was in it vs. what the band did once Roth left.

VHIII was bascially Ed's solo record. It's the one record that nobody said "no" to Ed (as in, "No, Eddie, that's not a good idea," or, "No, Eddie, that part would work good here, but this part isn't working."), and the result speaks for itself.

[DLR Bridge]

Yeah, as much as things didn't work out for this record and I was still feeling the sting of '96 when this came out, there are some songs I can listen to every now and then. It would be nice to be able to strip the vocals away. I found Gary to be a bigger problem than the actual song structures.

[Satan]

I think VDIII might have been one HELL of an album if it had been recorded with Dave in the band, shaping Ed's ideas into proper songs. End result might have been closer to the DLR Band album than the Danniels/Cherone/Mike Post clusterfuck that was released, but nothing wrong with that.

There were only two things wrong with the DLR band album: 1) the (literal) bargain basement production. 2) those few songs where Dave tried to push his voice to octaves he couldn't pull off in 1976, let alone 1998. Still don't know what he was thinking there.

A full VH reunion album recorded in 1997 probably would have had Ted Templeman and a WB big budget behind it. And as good as ADKOT is, they may have well fucked up the opportuntity to do even better.

[DLR Bridge]

I know I said it before but, Dave would have killed it on that Dirty Water Dog song. Probably Ballot Or The Bullet, too.

[Satan]

Maybe Dave & Ted Templeman should get the VDIII master tapes, wipe Cherone's vocals, Dave can write new lyrics & vocals and arrange them however he wants.... and before you know it, there's a new Van Halen album! Hell, if he sneaks Mike Sobolewski in the studio to do the harmonies, all the better.

Why not? It's pretty much how Mick Jagger made "Tattoo You" and the more recent "bonus discs" for the remasters of "Exile on Main Street" and "Some Girls".

And if it's a hit, he could do the same with the Van Hagar catalog. Dave should be able to get at least one album's worth of usable material out of their 4 records.

[DLR Bridge]

Devil, I like the way you think. Perhaps, it's gonna be hot where I'm going when I shuffle off this mortal coil.

[ThatArtGuy]

I'd rather they look to the future and record new stuff, instead of rehashing the old stuff. Look to the future, not the pasture.

[sadaist]

I'd rather they look to the future and record new stuff, instead of rehashing the old stuff. Look to the future, not the pasture.



But the rehashing was fresh & new & sexy & kick ass. So I don't care how they do it, as long as they do it.

[Northern Girl]

But the rehashing was sexy

I fucked them all! :rockit:

[DLR Bridge]

I fucked them all! :rockit:

Ok, you're gonna have to bust out the old AV if you're gonna get all dirty like. Them's ain't cross eyed baby woids!

[dave_is_vh]

What it comes down to is what others in the thread have already said: one need do little more than think of the stuff the band did when Roth was in it vs. what the band did once Roth left.

Sorry but I don't listen to stuff without Dave in it

[ELVIS]

Still don't know what he was thinking there.



He thought his high yelp voice sounded good...

He still does...

[tbone888]

Its obvious to any true VH fan that its Dave's melodies and lyrics. Just like any true ACDC fan knows its Bon's lyrics and melodies all over Back in Black and the title track from For Those About to Rock.

[VHscraps]

Maybe Dave & Ted Templeman should get the VDIII master tapes, wipe Cherone's vocals, Dave can write new lyrics & vocals and arrange them however he wants.... and before you know it, there's a new Van Halen album! Hell, if he sneaks Mike Sobolewski in the studio to do the harmonies, all the better.

Why not? It's pretty much how Mick Jagger made "Tattoo You" and the more recent "bonus discs" for the remasters of "Exile on Main Street" and "Some Girls".

And if it's a hit, he could do the same with the Van Hagar catalog. Dave should be able to get at least one album's worth of usable material out of their 4 records.

I was just listening to 'Plundered My Soul' last night and thinking it was the best thing the Stones had done in decades by a fucking mile ... because it was recorded in 72! and, yeah, revived / finished off etc by Jagger - and some fabulous Mick Taylor guitar work.

VH did something similar on some of the ADKOT tunes, as we know - if they have more unfinished tunes lying around, then I would be pefectly happy for them to make use of 'em in this way.

[FORD]

I was just listening to 'Plundered My Soul' last night and thinking it was the best thing the Stones had done in decades by a fucking mile ... because it was recorded in 72! and, yeah, revived / finished off etc by Jagger - and some fabulous Mick Taylor guitar work.

VH did something similar on some of the ADKOT tunes, as we know - if they have more unfinished tunes lying around, then I would be pefectly happy for them to make use of 'em in this way.

Actually, I think Mick cheated a little bit on that one. I've heard just about every bootleg from the Exile sessions and can't think of any song from that era that remotely comes close to "Plundered My Soul". Some of those bonus songs went back a little further of course. Good Time Women may have turned into "Tumblin Dice" but the original was more of a Sticky Fingers demo, and "All Down the Line" was first attempted in the Let It Bleed sessions.

My suspicion is when you strip Jagger's vocals. Mick Taylor's new guitar track, and some drum overdubs from Charlie out of that track, you would find this buried underneath.... and it goes way back to 1968.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kOqaTs-1Gg

[VHscraps]

Actually, I think Mick cheated a little bit on that one. I've heard just about every bootleg from the Exile sessions and can't think of any song from that era that remotely comes close to "Plundered My Soul". Some of those bonus songs went back a little further of course. Good Time Women may have turned into "Tumblin Dice" but the original was more of a Sticky Fingers demo, and "All Down the Line" was first attempted in the Let It Bleed sessions.

My suspicion is when you strip Jagger's vocals. Mick Taylor's new guitar track, and some drum overdubs from Charlie out of that track, you would find this buried underneath.... and it goes way back to 1968.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kOqaTs-1Gg

First time hearing that - I can hear echoes here and there. The lick at the start and the opening chords reminded me of 'You Can't Always Get What You Want'.

I was reading something where Don Was said he was give hundreds of hours of stuff fom Exile sessions - I also read something with Mck Taylor saying he hadn't heard the track for 'Plundered' before Mick brought him in.