Bush Can Hold U.S. Citizens Without Trial

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  • Pink Spider
    Sniper
    • Jan 2004
    • 867

    Bush Can Hold U.S. Citizens Without Trial

    Amendment VI

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.




    Bush Can Hold U.S. Citizens Without Trial




    By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled narrowly Monday that Congress gave President Bush the power to hold an American citizen without charges or trial, but said the detainee can challenge his treatment in court.



    The 6-3 ruling sided with the administration on an important legal point raised in the war on terrorism. At the same time, it left unanswered other hard questions raised by the case of Yaser Esam Hamdi, who has been detained more than two years and who was only recently allowed to see a lawyer.


    The administration had fought any suggestion that Hamdi or another U.S.-born terrorism suspect could go to court, saying that such a legal fight posed a threat to the president's power to wage war as he sees fit.


    "We have no reason to doubt that courts, faced with these sensitive matters, will pay proper heed both to the matters of national security that might arise in an individual case and to the constitutional limitations safeguarding essential liberties that remain vibrant even in times of security concerns," Justice Sandra Day O'Connor (news - web sites) wrote for the court.


    O'Connor said that Hamdi "unquestionably has the right to access to counsel."


    The court threw out a lower court ruling that supported the government's position fully, and Hamdi's case now returns to a lower court.


    The careful opinion seemed deferential to the White House, but did not give the president everything he wanted.


    The ruling is the largest test so far of executive power in the post-Sept. 11 assault on terrorism.


    The court has yet to rule in the similar case of American-born detainee Jose Padilla and in another case testing the legal rights of detainees held as enemy combatants at a U.S. military prison facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


    O'Connor said the court has "made clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens."


    She was joined by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and justices Stephen Breyer (news - web sites) and Anthony Kennedy (news - web sites) in her view that Congress had authorized detentions such as Hamdi's in what she called very limited circumstances.


    Congress voted shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks to give the president significant authority to pursue terrorists, but Hamdi's lawyers said that authority did not extend to the indefinite detention of an American citizen without charges or trial.


    Two other justices, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg (news - web sites), would have gone further and declared Hamdi's detention improper. Still, they joined O'Connor and the others to say that Hamdi, and by extension others who may be in his position, are entitled to their day in court.


    Hamdi and Padilla are in military custody at a Navy brig in South Carolina. They have been interrogated repeatedly without lawyers present.


    The Bush administration contends that as "enemy combatants," the men are not entitled to the usual rights of prisoners of war set out in the Geneva Conventions. Enemy combatants are also outside the constitutional protections for ordinary criminal suspects, the government has claimed.


    The administration argued that the president alone has authority to order their detention, and that courts have no business second-guessing that decision.


    The case has additional resonance because of recent revelations that U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners and used harsh interrogation methods at a prison outside Baghdad. For some critics of the administration's security measures, the pictures of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison illustrated what might go wrong if the military and White House have unchecked authority over prisoners.


    At oral arguments in the Padilla case in April, an administration lawyer assured the court that Americans abide by international treaties against torture, and that the president or the military would not allow even mild torture as a means to get information.
  • FORD
    ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

    • Jan 2004
    • 58787

    #2
    SIEG OIL!! Another bullet in the head of Democracy
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

    Comment

    • ELVIS
      Banned
      • Dec 2003
      • 44120

      #3
      I wonder how Kerry would differ...

      Comment

      • FORD
        ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

        • Jan 2004
        • 58787

        #4
        Originally posted by ELVIS
        I wonder how Kerry would differ...
        One would hope he would appoint judges to the Supreme Court who respected the Bill of Rights, and the rest of the Constitution.

        That's at least one area where Judas IS better than Junior.

        But in this case the damage has now been done. Who do you appeal to when the Supreme Court makes a wrong, fascist, and blatantly anti-Constitutional ruling?
        Eat Us And Smile

        Cenk For America 2024!!

        Justice Democrats


        "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

        Comment

        • Pink Spider
          Sniper
          • Jan 2004
          • 867

          #5
          John Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Therefore, he is directly responsible for enabling the mess. Kerry will most likely finish what Bush started if he takes office.

          This November you have a choice of either Hitler or Stalin. Take your pick.

          Comment

          • Keeyth
            Crazy Ass Mofo
            • Apr 2004
            • 3010

            #6
            Originally posted by Pink Spider
            John Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Therefore, he is directly responsible for enabling the mess. Kerry will most likely finish what Bush started if he takes office.

            This November you have a choice of either Hitler or Stalin. Take your pick.
            Bullshit! don't you people know that NONE of the Senators that voted on the Patriot Act were able to read it beforehand??? And that THAT is how MOST of our bills that are passed go??? Everyone from the Bush camp made it sound like you were going to be labled as 'unpatriotic' if you didn't sign it, and when it came down, it was the most unconstitutional piece of crap ever written! You are right about Bush being Hitler, and I'm no Kerry fan, but he's no Stalin and he's leagues better than Bush!!!
            Knowing and believing are two very different things.

            It is the difference between the knowledge we accrue... ...and the knowledge we apply.

            Comment

            • Keeyth
              Crazy Ass Mofo
              • Apr 2004
              • 3010

              #7
              Originally posted by FORD


              But in this case the damage has now been done. Who do you appeal to when the Supreme Court makes a wrong, fascist, and blatantly anti-Constitutional ruling?
              True. Our Supreme Court threw out any claim they had to legitimacy the day they decided not to recount the vote in Florida. End of Story.
              Knowing and believing are two very different things.

              It is the difference between the knowledge we accrue... ...and the knowledge we apply.

              Comment

              • FORD
                ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                • Jan 2004
                • 58787

                #8
                Kerry is definitely no Stalin. Neville Chamberlain perhaps, but no Stalin.
                Eat Us And Smile

                Cenk For America 2024!!

                Justice Democrats


                "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                Comment

                • knuckleboner
                  Crazy Ass Mofo
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 2927

                  #9
                  Originally posted by FORD
                  Who do you appeal to when the Supreme Court makes a wrong, fascist, and blatantly anti-Constitutional ruling?

                  uh...the supreme court.

                  they do overturn themselves on occasion.


                  however, this ruling is an interesting one.

                  yes, the 6th amendment guarantees a right to an attorney and a speedy trial, "in all criminal prosecutions."

                  an enemy combatant is a murkier situation.



                  i have always said that while i don't inherently distrust the military or the government, i nonetheless feel that there should be some sort of judicial oversight over declared enemy combatants.

                  from what i've seen of this ruling, it goes a good way towards providing that oversight.

                  though, the "war on terror," is somewhat of a different situation. unlike most normal wars, there isn't likely to be an ending to it. holding an enemy combatant for the duration of the war on terror is much more likely to be an indefinite, and probably permnant decision.

                  i would rather in this circumstance that the government eventually charges its detainees with a crime in the court system.

                  and, to be honest, i suspect that this issue will find its way into the legal system as the detainees begin to challenge their status in the courts.

                  this is a new issue, and will take a little time to hash out.

                  but i do believe that jose padillia will eventually get his day in court. (and then, probably, his much deserved 20-life...)

                  Comment

                  • Pink Spider
                    Sniper
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 867

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Keeyth
                    Bullshit! don't you people know that NONE of the Senators that voted on the Patriot Act were able to read it beforehand??? And that THAT is how MOST of our bills that are passed go??? Everyone from the Bush camp made it sound like you were going to be labled as 'unpatriotic' if you didn't sign it, and when it came down, it was the most unconstitutional piece of crap ever written! You are right about Bush being Hitler, and I'm no Kerry fan, but he's no Stalin and he's leagues better than Bush!!!
                    Then that would make Kerry incompetent. But, what about voting for the war in Iraq? If he didn't read that one, he's obviously more illiterate than Bush.

                    He puts a lot of spin on everything he does to cover his tracks and not be held accountable for anything he signs. I'm just not buying it.

                    Comment

                    • John Ashcroft
                      Veteran
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 2127

                      #11
                      Originally posted by knuckleboner
                      uh...the supreme court.

                      they do overturn themselves on occasion.


                      however, this ruling is an interesting one.

                      yes, the 6th amendment guarantees a right to an attorney and a speedy trial, "in all criminal prosecutions."

                      an enemy combatant is a murkier situation.



                      i have always said that while i don't inherently distrust the military or the government, i nonetheless feel that there should be some sort of judicial oversight over declared enemy combatants.

                      from what i've seen of this ruling, it goes a good way towards providing that oversight.

                      though, the "war on terror," is somewhat of a different situation. unlike most normal wars, there isn't likely to be an ending to it. holding an enemy combatant for the duration of the war on terror is much more likely to be an indefinite, and probably permnant decision.

                      i would rather in this circumstance that the government eventually charges its detainees with a crime in the court system.

                      and, to be honest, i suspect that this issue will find its way into the legal system as the detainees begin to challenge their status in the courts.

                      this is a new issue, and will take a little time to hash out.

                      but i do believe that jose padillia will eventually get his day in court. (and then, probably, his much deserved 20-life...)
                      Trying to inject some common sense with this crowd? Good luck!

                      Honestly though, is there anyway to have a trial for enemy combatants in secret? Where the sources of evidence and information can be protected? I think we learned a lesson with our pursuit of terrorists through the legal system before. I've read quite a few articles on how the damage done to intelligence gathering capability during the previous criminal trials (World trade center bombing I) directly contributed to, and enabled the terrorists to pull off 9/11. However, even if Padilla is a scumbag, I don't believe it's right to hold him indefinitely without charging him. In fact, it's been too long already in my opinion. But I don't know the national security issues that are causing the government to take this position. Like I've said, if we could have trials without compromising national security that'd be ideal. Obviously, this is a tough one.

                      Oh, and how does the peanut gallery feel about the 2nd Ammendment? We're talking about "shredding the Bill of Rights" and all... Do we have favorite parts of the Constitution? Is it acceptable to protect parts with vigor while pissing on the parts we don't like?

                      Comment

                      • FORD
                        ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                        • Jan 2004
                        • 58787

                        #12
                        Originally posted by John Ashcroft


                        Oh, and how does the peanut gallery feel about the 2nd Ammendment? We're talking about "shredding the Bill of Rights" and all... Do we have favorite parts of the Constitution? Is it acceptable to protect parts with vigor while pissing on the parts we don't like?
                        The constitution shredding of this Fraudministration, beginning with the Supreme Court selection of the Chimp, has made me think more about the second ammendment than anything else in history.
                        Eat Us And Smile

                        Cenk For America 2024!!

                        Justice Democrats


                        "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                        Comment

                        • Pink Spider
                          Sniper
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 867

                          #13
                          One of the things I'm not "liberal" about and haven't been in quite some time are firearms for some of the same reasons that FORD stated.

                          In fact if you see a "liberal" that wants to ban guns after what's happened lately, I would call that person insane.

                          Comment

                          • John Ashcroft
                            Veteran
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 2127

                            #14
                            At least you're coming around...

                            Oh, and Happy Birthday! Hope you have a good one.

                            Comment

                            • Keeyth
                              Crazy Ass Mofo
                              • Apr 2004
                              • 3010

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Pink Spider
                              Then that would make Kerry incompetent. But, what about voting for the war in Iraq? If he didn't read that one, he's obviously more illiterate than Bush.

                              He puts a lot of spin on everything he does to cover his tracks and not be held accountable for anything he signs. I'm just not buying it.
                              It's not a matter of illiteracy, it's a matter of not getting the opportunity or choice of reading a bill before being required to vote on it... ...sometimes all they get is the title.

                              I'm not happy about Kerry as our only other option either, but it's become a question of the lesser of two evils... ...and anything is better than the criminal syndicate that is running our country right now... ...but I will agree that the only thing Kerry has to do to win this election is just not do anything wrong and watch Bush fuck himself the way he has been... ...not a strong presidential position I agree, but not a criminal one either.
                              Knowing and believing are two very different things.

                              It is the difference between the knowledge we accrue... ...and the knowledge we apply.

                              Comment

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