G`n`R "Use your illusion" : The real reason for the rise of grunge?

[Mr Badguy]

Over the past couple of weeks I have been listening to two albums I hadn`t played in years: Guns n Roses "Use your illusion 1+2".

When you think back on it, those albums could be the reason for the rise of the anti rock star grunge phase of the mid 90`s.

No doubt there is good music in there ("Coma", "You could be mine", "Civil war" etc.) but there is also unfocused material and some downright meandering rubbish ("Knocking on heavens door" still makes me cringe).

Can you imagine a band releasing two double albums (over 150 minutes) of new music today?

Could anyone get away with anything as self indulgent and pompous as "November rain" (good though the song is)?

From what I remember, the tour was an overblown and sometimes disasterous affair with the group swelling to a ten piece, over-indulgent soloing from all band members and temper tantrums from W Axl Rose resulting in riots.

I know that at the time GnR could have farted on a CD and everyone would have bought it but although the albums have a lot to enjoy, you can`t help feeling that the concept was an ego trip by a bunch of fat cat rock stars and I think the end results were the backlash that was grunge.

That`s my theory.

[PHOENIX]

Use Your Illusion should have been one album. I already made my own copy and just put all the best ones on one cd. I agree that there was too much crap on it. Did we really need 2 versions of Dont Cry? If they had this much material they could have saved it for some Box Set.

I dont think this album helped the rise of grunge. In fact i believe that if the band had put out a better album than the Spaghetti Incident then they would have still been huge in the late 90's . Who knows maybe the original line up would still be around today.

[Mr Badguy]

I don`t mean the 2 albums themselves, I mean the whole circus that blew up just before the albums were released.

Not just the music, but the whole concept of the "Use your illusion" albums and tour could have been at the root of it.

The whole GnR thing just seemed to go on forever between 1991-1993.

They were the most famous band in the world, touring stadia, breaking box office records, releasing two double albums on the same day etc.

They were the rock royalty the same way as Pink floyd and Zeppelin were in the 70`s, they were perceived as massive bands who were totally out of touch with the people who attended their concerts and bought their records.

That led to the punk scene and I think the same thing happened with grunge in the 90`s.

GnR had become a very different concept to the streetwise angry rock n roll of "Appetite for destruction".

Although they aren`t totally to blame, I`m think their bloated egomania played its part.

[PHOENIX]

Yeah that whole tour was way too excessive. They went from a 5 piece band to having keyboard players, back up singers and whatever else they could shove on stage. Too big too fast!

[Mr Badguy]

I remember watching one of the concerts on TV.

Matt Sorum played what seemed like a 15 minute drum solo accompanied by Duff "Rose" McKagan, who was beating fuck out of one of his floor toms.

That was so self indulgent.

What pleasure could the audience have got from that?

That was the thing I never got, when you`ve just released two over-long CDs, why pad out your concerts with long, boring solos?

Why not learn a few more songs?

Bands are still doing it today.

[Panamark]

I agree with all the self indulgence angles. But Im not sure they were solely responsible for the rise of grunge. What is grunge anyway ?
Melodic basic Metal without Solo's ?? Im one of the few that think grunge in a bizzarro way kept the metal flame burning...

You still had the distorted chords, the metal rhythms, the pissed of attitude... My finger pointing goes straight at dance/techno, Rap/hip hop and premanufacted R&B. That last sentence contains all the
ingredients of metal and rock being pushed to background.
If anything grunge held interest towards heavy guitar driven rock..

Metal never dies, Dont forget. Just when you think its gone forever,
bang ! Something comes along to keep the flame burning...
Is it "The Darknesss" at the moment ? or perhaps the way overdue
Priest reunion... Either way, Rock and Metal are far from dead.

Rock played at its ultimate will never die.

[Mr Badguy]

Exactly!

Grunge was much the same as punk in the 70`s, just rock music going back to basics without the ten minute ballads, 300 foot wide stages, horn sections and backing singers and all the other stuff that comes when a rock band gets so big that you have to travel 100 miles or whatever to a stadium to see them.

I know it`s another categorization but it`s what we all term that period and style of rock that was in vogue at the time.

I`m not saying that it wasn`t healthy for the music scene.

How many more bands like Tuff, Trixter, Poison etc. just dumb ass shit could jump on that bandwagon before the bus broke down?

The point I was trying to make was that in 1987-88, "Appetite for destruction" heralded the peak years for that style of hard rock/metal with its anger, vitality and great songs.

Between 1991-93, "Use your illusion 1+2" ushered out the golden years because of the sheer scale of how self important, not just GnR, but all of those bands at the top had become.

Even no brainers like Warrant and Poison started saying that they wanted to make serious records!

There was nowhere left to go but to strip it all back down and it took a new breed of band to do it.

However, with all new kinds of music there are always sub-standard bands who jump on the gravy train and grunge was no exception.

It is interesting that all of the bands who stuck to their guns (AC/DC, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Rush etc.) and never tried to change to fit in, all came through to be bigger than ever while the ones who tried to change are all playing the nostalgia circuit now.

[Mr Grimsdale]

this thread is far too serious

cooey mr shifter!

[Wayne L.]

I thought it was LUDICRIOUS when somebody on the VH1 Behind The Music special on GNR compared Use Your Illusion 1 & 2 to the White Album by the Beatles which is crazy.

[BruinJer]

I don't care for the Use Your Illusion albums to begin with but that whole rock/metal scene, at that time, was a fucking joke. The bands and music was so "cookie cutter"... it was sickening! We needed grunge. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with embracing grunge if you like metal... I see guys like Vince Neil & dopes like that who refuse to even acknowldge grunge's existance. The music scene needed grunge!

[Panamark]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Exactly!

Grunge was much the same as punk in the 70`s, just rock music going back to basics without the ten minute ballads, 300 foot wide stages, horn sections and backing singers and all the other stuff that comes when a rock band gets so big that you have to travel 100 miles or whatever to a stadium to see them.

I know it`s another categorization but it`s what we all term that period and style of rock that was in vogue at the time.

I`m not saying that it wasn`t healthy for the music scene.

How many more bands like Tuff, Trixter, Poison etc. just dumb ass shit could jump on that bandwagon before the bus broke down?

The point I was trying to make was that in 1987-88, "Appetite for destruction" heralded the peak years for that style of hard rock/metal with its anger, vitality and great songs.

Between 1991-93, "Use your illusion 1+2" ushered out the golden years because of the sheer scale of how self important, not just GnR, but all of those bands at the top had become.

Even no brainers like Warrant and Poison started saying that they wanted to make serious records!

There was nowhere left to go but to strip it all back down and it took a new breed of band to do it.

However, with all new kinds of music there are always sub-standard bands who jump on the gravy train and grunge was no exception.

It is interesting that all of the bands who stuck to their guns (AC/DC, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Rush etc.) and never tried to change to fit in, all came through to be bigger than ever while the ones who tried to change are all playing the nostalgia circuit now.


Agree with all that Badguy !

Especially the last paragraph. There are exceptions, however,
Metallica, they tried to change and are still a hefty drawcard..

[EmpyreLounge44]

grunge was definitly a throw back to a "punk" type scene where they were trying to be as far away as the garbage cookie cutter hair metal that was going on. i dont think uyi1&2 had too much effect on the grunge scene as it was released the same year as Nevermind which a lot of people incorrectly state as the start of grunge...although it is what made grunge so commercial.

it happens with every scene...how many of the hair metal bands were worth anything? 4...maybe 5? same with grunge. the record companies have proven awful in just finding a craze and beating the shit out of it and then drop it when it isnt selling anymore. many of the musicians that were the cookie cutter just faded and died when grunge hit. it had such a big effect on that scene...look at dlr. he disapeared during the height of grunge

[Diver Down NJ]

It's pretty amazing (and sad) how quickly GNR went from a kickass, hungry metal band to this bloated rock dinosaur. We basically got 2 excellent albums from GNR, then nothing.

[EmpyreLounge44]

take a bunch of addicts and put them with a fragile egomaniac and thats what you get. its like they watched a Behind the Music before their career and just tried to get their own as hard as they could

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
this thread is far too serious

cooey mr shifter!

Yes, but it`s nice to get a bit of discussion going.

Rather than naming your three favourite...whatever.

[secrets]

I loved GnR for a quite a while. "Appetite" was an amzing album but "Illusion" was for me a dissapointment apart from a few tracks such as Civil War which is probably their best song.

GnR were just the tip of the iceberg. It was corporate rock or what some call "hair metal" that had gone pretty stale and generic.

Every heavy rock band at that time had to have a couple of soft BonJoviesque ballads to get in the charts and sell records. They all looked and sounded pretty similar.

Grunge was rebelling against all that. There were a lot of bands that came out at this time in the 90's that were really excellent.

Some were ahead of their time and still sound great today. I could really go back and check out some of that music today because apart from Nirvana, Pearl Jam and possibly Alice in Chains I didn't totally get into that scene.

I need to get some of Sound Garden's stuff.

[gary191265]

For a while Guns 'n' Roses were fantastic but they definitely got too big too quickly. I saw them at Manchester Apollo in 1987 (Faster Pussycat supporting !) and they were great. The next time they toured, they did Wembley Stadium !!! It all went to pieces (IMO) when first Steven Adler left, then Izzy. Adler was a crap drummer but fitted into the band and Izzy was just a great rythym guitarist and songwriter.

[Warham]

Grunge was necessary and inevitable.

[BruinJer]

Originally posted by EmpyreLounge44
grunge was definitly a throw back to a "punk" type scene where they were trying to be as far away as the garbage cookie cutter hair metal that was going on. i dont think uyi1&2 had too much effect on the grunge scene as it was released the same year as Nevermind which a lot of people incorrectly state as the start of grunge...although it is what made grunge so commercial.

During the KNAC years here in Los Angeles (way before they went off the air and became an internet station) I remember them playing bands like Nirvana, Mudhoney, Soundgarden & Alice In Chains at least TWO years before the Nevermind album "dropped" and if I remember correctly... Smells like Teen Spirit didn't blow up for at least 6months to a year after the release of Nevermind. as everyone has mentioned... people were just tired of the same old crap that was being put out there... Skidrow(who I like), Slaughter, Winger, Warrent & GnR... it's all the same shit! Thank God for grunge!

[Mr Badguy]

Slaughter!

Man, I had forgotten about them.

That guys voice made my blood run cold.

[Bill Lumbergh]

I still cant believe the amount of bitching over these albums. No doubt there is some filler, but there are so many great songs, who really gives a fuck?! The band was in a no win situation having to follow up "Appetite"..........I for one think they did a helluva job.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Slaughter!

Man, I had forgotten about them.

That guys voice made my blood run cold.

Holy fuck, now that's a band Van Hagar needs to hook up with...........all those pussy ballads in one place will have all the sheep fingering themselves within minutes!

[EmpyreLounge44]

I agree with ya BruinJer that grunge was a good thing to get rid of so many of those awful bands. but critically Nevermind is the "starting point" although you couldnt have gotten there without the other bands you mentioned. Teen Spirit wasnt even the first single from Nevermind, although I cant remember what was

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
I still cant believe the amount of bitching over these albums. No doubt there is some filler, but there are so many great songs, who really gives a fuck?! The band was in a no win situation having to follow up "Appetite"..........I for one think they did a helluva job.

Yeah, but the point is that they are so different.

"Appetite..." has arguably the best side one ever.

There isn`t a note out of place and it is the musical equivelant of controlled aggression.

Side two is slighty patchy IMO.

If "UYI" had been boiled down into one album, it would have been a close thing between which was the better.

"UYI" doesn`t have the same controlled aggression, which is probably best summed up in the childish rant of "Get in the ring".

I`m sure everyone in the world could write a song bitching about people who have fucked with them.

GnR`s (perhaps W Axl Rose`s") ego decided that instead of one kick ass CD, the world should have two patchy ones.

A missed opportunity due to blatant self indulgence.

[BruinJer]

Originally posted by EmpyreLounge44
I agree with ya BruinJer that grunge was a good thing to get rid of so many of those awful bands. but critically Nevermind is the "starting point" although you couldnt have gotten there without the other bands you mentioned. Teen Spirit wasnt even the first single from Nevermind, although I cant remember what was


I think Breed was the first single from that album... KNAC used to play the shit out of that song.

[EmpyreLounge44]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
"UYI" doesn`t have the same controlled aggression, which is probably best summed up in the childish rant of "Get in the ring".


this happens to pretty much every band who starts out so agressive and rebelious...the standard and the norm soon loops around and you find that you have nothing to fight against and what you do with that determines a band. GnR/Axl couldn't handle that and he disappeared.

[SoCalChelle]

I love those albums. I'd pretty much forgotten about them until I saw this thread. Had to go burn myself a copy. :D

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Yes, but it`s nice to get a bit of discussion going.

Rather than naming your three favourite...whatever.

agreed!

personally i'm a fan of 80% of both illusions CDs, as for seeing them live i can't comment

i know several lads that saw them in 1992 at wembley stadium and they said it was fantastic

saying that i watched the live dvd with one of those guys a few months back and we both found in pretty much unwatchable/unlistenable