Internment Camps, Power Grab,WTF?

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
The President of the United States didn't know what to do when he got the news of the attack? This is the guy you want in charge of the war on terror?

So he sat there considering how he should react and the scrutiny that he would be under for it? Really? So securing the country was not his top priority. It was his legacy.

You really go out of your way to justify and make excuses for the inaction taken that morning.

It's not the CEO's job to talk to the customer threatening to call an attorney over the amount of their bill. There is a whole STAFF of people in specified jobs that was supposed to be "people" at the ready of an attack...AT ALL TIMES! Not just that day.

Which do you expect President to be? A dictator who controls everything (micro-managing) or do you want your tax dollars paying the salaries of a whole slew of officials who head up their particular branches to do what's neccessary at a moment's notice?

I don't think ANY person elected into that office would've jumped up and started ordering people around knowing EXACTLY how to react. NOT ONE! I can't imagine how any of us expect the myriad of human emotion to be instantly squealched when he/she is told that the country that they're supposed to be in charge of is under attack.

DC, it doesn't work for me this notion that it's just ALL Bush's fault. Too many hands in the collective pie (no matter who's sitting in that seat) that has responsibility in the event of any situation ever.

One aspect people tend to forget is that the President (in the event of a National Security issue) immediately becomes the property of his/her team of security and secret service agents. Andy Card probably told the President what was happening and to sit still while they secured the building. Protecting the President is the security personnel's number one priority and he/she is to do as told in such an event.

But no, it's Bush....had it been Clinton.....well, actually it WAS Clinton once and at the WTC....how did he respond?
Well, we don't know because he's Clinton. No one's pouring over his actions when the WTC garages were bombed during his Presidency...

Forget political sides for a second guys and think like rational adults.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
If Chimpy was so "surprised" by the attacks, why did he have armed snipers and surface to air missile batteries on the roof of the resort in Florida where he slept the night before?

Why did Jeb sign a law which gave him the ability to deploy the National Guard under martial law, on Sept. 7, 2001?

The BCE was not surprised by the attack. They were fully expecting it. And you gotta wonder what Andy Card really whispered in monkey boy's ear that day.

"Mission Accomplished", maybe??

I don't know that they were expecting it that day. But I'm pretty sure they had been waiting for something...

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35457

[DEMON CUNT]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Which do you expect President to be? A dictator who controls everything (micro-managing) or do you want your tax dollars paying the salaries of a whole slew of officials who head up their particular branches to do what's neccessary at a moment's notice?

No, I expect the President to sit in a classroom full of children and grimace as he waits for his instructions while the country is attacked and it's citizens slaughtered.

Don't you think, at the very least, he should have made some phone calls? Make sure shit was getting done? By your logic the President has nothing to do in the midst of a crisis.

I don't think ANY person elected into that office would've jumped up and started ordering people around knowing EXACTLY how to react. NOT ONE! I can't imagine how any of us expect the myriad of human emotion to be instantly squealched when he/she is told that the country that they're supposed to be in charge of is under attack.

This sort of speculation is silly and not that of a 'rational adult'. What if Rambo was President?

DC, it doesn't work for me this notion that it's just ALL Bush's fault. Too many hands in the collective pie (no matter who's sitting in that seat) that has responsibility in the event of any situation ever.

Yes, imagine us crazy people expecting some accountability from the highest office. You are aware the kinds of people that Bush has appointed to various important positions. The government's reaction to Katrina showed us that the Administration learned very little about crisis management. This is because they do not care about crisis management.

Barbara Bush gave us a glimpse into the Bush mentality when she said "And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this [she chuckles slightly] is working very well for them." of the Katrina refugees.

You want to spread the blame so thin so that nobody is held accountable. Especially Bush, who you fall all over yourself to protect. By this logic the President can be held accountable for nothing.

One aspect people tend to forget is that the President (in the event of a National Security issue) immediately becomes the property of his/her team of security and secret service agents. Andy Card probably told the President what was happening and to sit still while they secured the building. Protecting the President is the security personnel's number one priority and he/she is to do as told in such an event.

Does this mean that his Presidential powers are suspended while he is "the property" of his team? "Sit there and read your book, Georgie. You belong to us now!"

On what do you base your knowledge of Presidential protocol? The second season of "24"?

But no, it's Bush....had it been Clinton.....well, actually it WAS Clinton once and at the WTC....how did he respond?
Well, we don't know because he's Clinton. No one's pouring over his actions when the WTC garages were bombed during his Presidency...

If you knew anything about the 1993 WTC attack you would know that they started arresting suspects within a week and four convictions within a year. No one is pouring over this attack because there is nothing to pour over. At the time this was the largest crime scene in the history of NY.

Feel free to actually research the 1993 attack, then we can discuss the details of that event and evaluate the government's reaction and can compare it to the reaction of the Bush White house.

Clinton gave us convictions. Bush gave us legislation. We do not need to remove our shoes when we rent a moving truck.

The mastermind of 911, who is still at large, is the brother of one of Bush's former business partners.

Forget political sides for a second guys and think like rational adults.

You are right, I think sitting there looking as though you have to take a big shit is the only way a President should react to a crisis.

[Ellyllions]

Enlighten me, muffin....what should he have done?
Then let me know why you're not running for President since you have all the answers. By all means, run. If you do have the answers you pretend to have, I'll vote for you too!

Then, tell me why you feel it's ok to de-humanize him above anyone else?

I have no problem with calling Bush's faults, but I'm not making him the diety of blame that most everyone else who oppose him. CAUSE IT'S USELESS. Running straight to the top with blame just means that you're not really willing to have the problems solved. You JUST wanna complain and you want to pretend that you have the high seat ear.

My Criminal Justice instructor served as Secret Service for Jimmy Carter for 5 years. That's all I'm going to say about what happens to the President in the event of a National Security crisis. I know a little bit about how he's "quarantined". As well as you do I'm certain.

He does NOT appoint the highest ranking military officials. Which you already know would've been the ones that would've ordered any kind of action. They ANSWER to the President with their decisions. If they fuck up, it's their ass.

The fact remains that sure, there was things that could've been done but when the company fucks up, it's the whole company's fault.

Blame Bush for what Bush has control.

-High energy prices
-The state of healthcare
-The stupid immigration policy he's pushing
-Even the war in Iraq

But....BUT you're side-stepping my question about Clinton's reactions. We're not discussing how much time lapsed before Bush sent troops or special forces to Afghanistan to seek and destroy Al-queda. We're supposed to be analyzing what Bush should've done within the 18 minutes after the attack, remember?


What was Clinton's first response to the WTC attack that happened on his watch? Where was he, what was his facial expressions, how long did he sit still before going anywhere or making calls? What was his frist response to the attack on the USS Cole? You've got the first 18 minutes after those attacks to judge his entire 8 years of effectiveness.

On a personal basis? Bush is nothing more than a man. What happened that day wasn't expected because the intelligence agencies were playing jurisdiction wars. It's feasible to assume that there was enough chatter to justify taking some security measures but our lovely failing Pentagon suits wanted the glory for themselves and never EVER expected passengers on an airplant to take those planes and plant them into buildings in target locations in the US. We're the fucking US afterall attacks don't happen here.

Here's the kicker for me though...Cheney was the one who was squirrelled away after the attack. Conspiracy theorists be damned, but we had to save one of the Execs in the event that Bush was taken out. It's what we do...ya'll protect the eagle above all else.

[FORD]

The question has been raised "What would a REAL President have done under the situation?"

Any logical President would have realized two things immediately....

1) If he was a target, then anyone around him is a target. Therefore being in a school is NOT a great idea.

2) Get back to Washington DC immediately as a show of strength.

Chimpy did just the opposite. He essentially used children as human shields, and then played a national game of hide and seek on a day when the American People desperately needed to believe that someone - even this goddamned idiot - was in charge, and that the country still existed.

He failed miserably on that count, and has continued to do so ever since.

[Dr. Love]

Nice, a competition to see who can make more "no you made the first gay comment!!!" posts. You both should get awards for your efforts.

[DEMON CUNT]

Hey, I am going to turn down my snark in our discussions. I feel that it gets in the way and I enjoy discussing this with you.

Originally posted by Ellyllions
He does NOT appoint the highest ranking military officials. Which you already know would've been the ones that would've ordered any kind of action. They ANSWER to the President with their decisions. If they fuck up, it's their ass.

Rumsfeld?

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Can you name any of the highest ranking military officials who have been held accountable for any mistakes in the "war on terror"? By your logic these officials cannot be held accountable either because they all have people working below them.

The fact remains that sure, there was things that could've been done but when the company fucks up, it's the whole company's fault.

Are you sure that you want to set this standard for the discussions that we enjoy here?

Do you blame the entire Clinton administration for the blowjob related dishonesty?

Blame Bush for what Bush has control.

-High energy prices
-The state of healthcare
-The stupid immigration policy he's pushing
-Even the war in Iraq

So, Bush has control over those things, but not the defence of our country?

But....BUT you're side-stepping my question about Clinton's reactions. We're not discussing how much time lapsed before Bush sent troops or special forces to Afghanistan to seek and destroy Al-queda.

Fair enough. I haven't been able to track down any info on Clinton's initial reaction to the attack. It happened around noon, so he was probably having lunch. Also, the attack took place just over a month after Clinton was inaugurated into his first term.

The Bush Pet Goat footage speaks for itself. I would love to see any footage of Clinton with a mouthful of pork sandwich as he is imformed of the attack. Did he finish that bite or spit it out to immediately issue his orders?

On a personal basis? Bush is nothing more than a man. We're the fucking US afterall attacks don't happen here.

Again, do you plan on applying this standard to all you criticize?

Attacks do and have happened here.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Hey, I am going to turn down my snark in our discussions. I feel that it gets in the way and I enjoy discussing this with you.

Okie dokie...but now I'm really scared.:D

Rumsfeld?

Can you name any of the highest ranking military officials who have been held accountable for any mistakes in the "war on terror"? By your logic these officials cannot be held accountable either because they all have people working below them.?

I can't name one person that was held accountable in the days prior to the attacks of 9/11. Why that's so, I don't know. I don't know what protocol was for such an event.

I'm not stretching this beyond 9/11.

Maybe I should've added that, "those who give the orders" are the ones who are held accountable if they fuck up. And yes, shit does flow down stream.

But honestly, DC I can't think of one thing that should've been done that wasn't done. All planes were ordered to be gounded and held. How do you order military action against communter planes when you have no idea what the fuck is going on yet? The way I see it, (and it might just be me) if the intelligence agencies knew this was coming (I believe they knew something was up but wasn't aware of scope or details) it's pretty obvious that the military did not.

Are you sure that you want to set this standard for the discussions that we enjoy here?

Now I know you're setting me up. Go ahead, do your worst.

Do you blame the entire Clinton administration for the blowjob related dishonesty?

No, I do not and I never have.

So, Bush has control over those things, but not the defence of our country?

The President is advised in military and defense issues. And yes he is responsible for the defense of our country to a point. Do you think that Clinton was military savvy by trade? No, he was an attorney by trade. But when a sudden attack like 9/11, WTC, and Pearl Harbor the President has to rely on the people sitting in their respective places to do their jobs at a moment's notice. But moreover, the President (no matter who he/she is) is a figurehead for the entire government and defense as a whole. I've found that people who blame Bush for 9/11 give the office of President way more authority and power than he/she is awarded in the Constitution. But I believe that you know that...you're just trying to find a way to pick me apart at this point. If you're not, then I wholeheartedly apologize but you can't blame me for being unsure.

Again, do you plan on applying this standard to all you criticize?

Out of all the Republicans posting on this board, am I the most unfair? Am I the most stubborn? ....or am I just the soup du jour?

Attacks do and have happened here.

That was sarcasm on my part. I meant that we had become secure. There hadn't been an attack of that magnitude since Pearl Harbor. (Not to disrespect any attacks between 9/11 and Pearl Harbor) But I think everyone here can agree that 9/11 rocked us on our heels. For hours we were stunned and in a state of denial that it had even happened. And that's not because we didn't see it coming, it was partly because the majority of us have never experienced war right on our home soil.

One question for you....what should've been done? Details if you can.

[Lqskdiver]

Back from my weekend. I see you guys were busy and Elly was holding her own pretty good.

Alright, DC, just a little clarification. I don't watch Hannity...can't stand the greaseball. This "Great American" shit is really over the top and used for entertainment purposes. For that matter, I don't watch Fox news either. They became too biased after sometime and I don't see the point of getting informed through that venue.

I get my news off the web and via drudge. After all Drudge consists of links to all news agency, liberal and conservative alike.

So you can leave the talking points out of our "debates".

My conclusion and opinion, as is my entitlement along with every schmoe here, is Bush was flabbergasted at what he has just been told. To sit there while camera's are rolling and kids are reading and ponder what he has just been told is beyond anyone's comprehension.

And again, there was no precedence before this attack. I don't give anyone a free pass. My opinion is what I would have felt if I saw one of our F-16's shoot down one of our commercial airplanes on live tv. I think I would have been in total shock if that would have occurred.

No one knew what was going on and what was going to happen. There were warnings and our government, current and past alike, chose to not take them seriously.

Zero tolerance is really a policy....one that IS difficult but must be enforced. If not, the next time we are caught asleep at the wheel...well, you know what can happen.

[DEMON CUNT]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Now I know you're setting me up. Go ahead, do your worst.

Calm down, dear. I have decided to try and be kinder with some of the more articulate people that I disagree with. I am here to discuss these issues with people just like you.

That being said, I will still challenge you on some your positions and expect I the same from you.

I enjoy being challenged. It's how I check my opinions. Sometimes I find that I am wrong.

That is why I am here.

My thoughts on abortion have changed because of conversations like these.

Out of all the Republicans posting on this board, am I the most unfair? Am I the most stubborn? ....or am I just the soup du jour?

Nope, just one of the smart ones.

One question for you....what should've been done? Details if you can.

Now you are setting me up!

That's a tough and loaded question. I'll get back to you on that one.

Peace,
DC

[DEMON CUNT]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
I get my news off the web and via drudge. After all Drudge consists of links to all news agency, liberal and conservative alike.

I read Drudge daily. He is the center of the conservative talking point universe. If you don't see the slant in that shit... wait a minute, of course you don't see the slant in that shit.

Do you go there for your Barbara Streisand updates?

I even listen to Drudge's radio show.

You know he's gay, right? Ha ha, you get your news from a fag!

So you can leave the talking points out of our "debates".

If you see them, feel free to point them out and refernce the source, if you please.

My conclusion and opinion, as is my entitlement along with every schmoe here, is Bush was flabbergasted

Yes, the Dummy President (aka "The Decider") looked flabbergasted. "Was it the brother of a former business partner?" He thought to himself. No wonder you support him, you obviously have low expectations of the highest office.

And again, there was no precedence before this attack. I don't give anyone a free pass. My opinion is what I would have felt if I saw one of our F-16's shoot down one of our commercial airplanes on live tv. I think I would have been in total shock if that would have occurred.

No precedence? If that makes you feel better, then sure.

You would have experienced "total shock" if the planes were shot down? Are you that concerned with how you would have felt to see that? Because shooting those planes down could have saved thousands, but if shooting 'em down would have ruined your day, fuck 'em. We wouldn't want that upsetting such a fragile little princess!

No one knew what was going on and what was going to happen. There were warnings and our government, current and past alike, chose to not take them seriously.

No one? Bullshit. You are giving everyone a free pass.

Zero tolerance is really a policy....one that IS difficult but must be enforced. If not, the next time we are caught asleep at the wheel...well, you know what can happen.

So we were "asleep at the wheel"? We are still "asleep at the wheel", dummy. Are the borders secure? Where is Osama and what is he planning next? Got Katrina?