FAIR TAX Anyone?

[fifth element]

That's right, there is...for the most part. Different terms for different people with different ideas. The Fair tax IS a consumption tax...with prebates (refunds in advance) to those in the poverty levels like neuralfraud was talking about so they're not getting hosed upfront. You pay taxes on what you consume.

exactly

[BigBadBrian]

and I'm telling you that there ARE differences between a straight flat tax and the FairTax proposal

That's right, there is...for the most part. Different terms for different people with different ideas. The Fair tax IS a consumption tax...with prebates (refunds in advance) to those in the poverty levels like neuralfraud was talking about so they're not getting hosed upfront. You pay taxes on what you consume.

[fifth element]

I don't see a flat tax as fair. 17% is an inconvenience to the rich but brutal to someone who can barely buy food, housing and fuel on what they make. I think everyone should pay some tax but I'm in favor of a consumption tax. The rich consume more and will pay more. I think food and a few other things should be tax exempt. I think a road tax on fuel is fair. The people who use the roads the most and put the most wear and tear on them pay more taxes because they buy more fuel. Also, a VAT tax is a simple percentage and visible. The politicians can't play their games with it and if it gets too high, the people will complain and the issue has to be dealt with. The best part is everyone pays.

and I'm telling you that there ARE differences between a straight flat tax and the FairTax proposal

[Nitro Express]

Both sides just proved they refuse to cut anything...

They still have their paycheck and pensions. Or believe they will still have them.

[Nitro Express]

Bottom line is that we have to shut down the Wall $treet speculation casino. When the fucking Saudi Arabians - no strangers to greed themselves - shut down some of their oil production because there is a SURPLUS of oil, yet the price of crude oil and gas still rises DAILY, then something very fucked up is going on, and it's not the guys with the red dishtowels on their head who are to blame.

It's the speculating bastards on Wall Street. And they do it because they know they can make unlimited profits and not have to pay taxes on it. If most of the money they were stealing went into the pockets of the IRS, there would be no incentive for them to steal. Same for the oil company profits, by the way.

It was a regulated market until Bill Clinton deregulated it.

[Nitro Express]

I don't see a flat tax as fair. 17% is an inconvenience to the rich but brutal to someone who can barely buy food, housing and fuel on what they make. I think everyone should pay some tax but I'm in favor of a consumption tax. The rich consume more and will pay more. I think food and a few other things should be tax exempt. I think a road tax on fuel is fair. The people who use the roads the most and put the most wear and tear on them pay more taxes because they buy more fuel. Also, a VAT tax is a simple percentage and visible. The politicians can't play their games with it and if it gets too high, the people will complain and the issue has to be dealt with. The best part is everyone pays.

[FORD]

Bottom line is that we have to shut down the Wall $treet speculation casino. When the fucking Saudi Arabians - no strangers to greed themselves - shut down some of their oil production because there is a SURPLUS of oil, yet the price of crude oil and gas still rises DAILY, then something very fucked up is going on, and it's not the guys with the red dishtowels on their head who are to blame.

It's the speculating bastards on Wall Street. And they do it because they know they can make unlimited profits and not have to pay taxes on it. If most of the money they were stealing went into the pockets of the IRS, there would be no incentive for them to steal. Same for the oil company profits, by the way.

[fifth element]

I've been waiting for this bill to get passed for 6 years now, heh. Read the book gave it to a friend. Anyhow, the problem with the FAIRTAX is that 96% of people will confuse it with the "FLAT TAX" or just any "NATIONAL SALES TAX" plan and those plans all have their detractors who would say "THE WORLD WILL ASPLODE AND WE WILL ALL DIES! O NOES!!11"

It's going to take many more years of effort to get this sort of bill passed.

Why would anyone want to pay MORE sales tax? People don't necessarily care or understand the difference that "keeping their paycheck" would make because the way they see it, they get MORE money back every year!

Then you try and explain the prebate to these people and they will just stare at you dumbly...

"So I gotta pay tax on all this stuff, but each month i get a check to cover the amount of tax I would have to pay?"

"yes, up until your spending exceeds the 'poverty limit'"

"So it's like I don't have to pay the tax at all?"

"Essentially."

Another thing that people are so incredibly ignorant on are embedded taxes, the most notable I can think of being GAS and CIGARETTES.

Cigarettes didn't go from $2 a pack to $6 a pack in 10 years because of inflation. In fact, they were about $3 a pack until Mr. O took office.

"A tax cut for 95% of americans!"

How many well-educated, non-poor people smoke cigarettes, really? How many poor or impoverished people smoke cigarettes? Just about ALL OF THEM. When the majority of cigarette purchases are made by poor people, look at it this way.

Average smoker will go through a carton a week!

Average price of a carton of CHEAP ASS GENERIC CIGS: $30

with variance for the occasional time said smoker doesn't burn through 2 packs a day.. let's say 48 cartons per year at $30 - that is $1,440. Now tell me, did these poor people get $1,440 in tax cuts on their income? At that level they've probably already got positive tax refunds thanks to "Refundable tax credits", so the cigarette tax almost makes up for their "welfare."

"Well obviously it would be simpler if the welfare was cut and cig taxes were normalized"

Yes, it would make sense but a] voters dont understand shit that makes sense, they understand big tax refunds, and that the evil tobacco companies are trying to murder their unborn babies.

There's dozens more reasons why the fairtax will probably never succeed and all of them center on the public being too ignorant and the in-power politicians using misinformation to keep voters aligned with their parties.

The biggest thing people need to understand about the fairtax is not that it is a national sales tax, but that it is designed to replace ALL taxes, not just payroll and the current sales tax. Every product we buy is priced to reflect certain embedded taxes each manufacturer or reseller pays in the process of getting that product to you, be it payroll tax, or other corporate taxes - way too many for me to comprehend or even pretend like I comprehend, however it is very fair to say that a very significant portion of the price of each product we buy consists of taxes. Taxes are AWLAYS passed on to the customer. Each time a company has taxes increased, or new fees for some bullshit, they always hit YOU with the bill so that they can keep their bottom line from shrinking, and it's not necessarily fair to blame them of course.

Even Gas. GAS could and WOULD be cheaper, or at the very least stay the same with the only difference being that you see the real amount of tax you pay on each gallon and not all this "Includes all taxes" bullshit.

It's been postulated that if a corporation no longer has the tax burden, they MUST lower their prices - in the name of competition. That's the only real uncertain variable in this whole mess - will corporations fairly respond to not having the tax burden by removing it from their retail prices?

That's my two cents anyhow.

you are correct about people seeing FairTax as the same as Flat tax....

there are multiple articles, pamphlets, etc, comparing the two at this time, trying to show people the differences, but there are so many who simply do not care to read!
(btw, the Fairtax is almost always compared as being favorable to the Flat tax.)

More people should give up their prejudices and actually check out the details.

(and it would not hurt me at all to see the people running the IRS looking for new jobs....)
just saying...

[Nitro Express]

Exactly what deficit are we talking about here? The $14.5 trillion and growing fast deficit we are paying interest on or the $78 trillion debt that has the government pensions and Social Security added in? It's estimated that the gross national product of planet earth is around $60 trillion. We could tax everyone 100% and never come close to paying the real debt off. So someone is not going to get paid. We all know who that will be. Us. They will extend social security past the age of death so you will never collect. The whole thing probably will implode and when everyone is running around like pissed ants on a anthill, some slick sugar daddy will come in with a new ponzi scheme to settle everyone down and screw them some more.

The only difference between the US Government and Bernie Maddoff is Madoff didn't throw you into prison and fine you for not buying into his ponzi scheme.

[neuralfraud]

I've been waiting for this bill to get passed for 6 years now, heh. Read the book gave it to a friend. Anyhow, the problem with the FAIRTAX is that 96% of people will confuse it with the "FLAT TAX" or just any "NATIONAL SALES TAX" plan and those plans all have their detractors who would say "THE WORLD WILL ASPLODE AND WE WILL ALL DIES! O NOES!!11"

It's going to take many more years of effort to get this sort of bill passed.

Why would anyone want to pay MORE sales tax? People don't necessarily care or understand the difference that "keeping their paycheck" would make because the way they see it, they get MORE money back every year!

Then you try and explain the prebate to these people and they will just stare at you dumbly...

"So I gotta pay tax on all this stuff, but each month i get a check to cover the amount of tax I would have to pay?"

"yes, up until your spending exceeds the 'poverty limit'"

"So it's like I don't have to pay the tax at all?"

"Essentially."

Another thing that people are so incredibly ignorant on are embedded taxes, the most notable I can think of being GAS and CIGARETTES.

Cigarettes didn't go from $2 a pack to $6 a pack in 10 years because of inflation. In fact, they were about $3 a pack until Mr. O took office.

"A tax cut for 95% of americans!"

How many well-educated, non-poor people smoke cigarettes, really? How many poor or impoverished people smoke cigarettes? Just about ALL OF THEM. When the majority of cigarette purchases are made by poor people, look at it this way.

Average smoker will go through a carton a week!

Average price of a carton of CHEAP ASS GENERIC CIGS: $30

with variance for the occasional time said smoker doesn't burn through 2 packs a day.. let's say 48 cartons per year at $30 - that is $1,440. Now tell me, did these poor people get $1,440 in tax cuts on their income? At that level they've probably already got positive tax refunds thanks to "Refundable tax credits", so the cigarette tax almost makes up for their "welfare."

"Well obviously it would be simpler if the welfare was cut and cig taxes were normalized"

Yes, it would make sense but a] voters dont understand shit that makes sense, they understand big tax refunds, and that the evil tobacco companies are trying to murder their unborn babies.

There's dozens more reasons why the fairtax will probably never succeed and all of them center on the public being too ignorant and the in-power politicians using misinformation to keep voters aligned with their parties.

The biggest thing people need to understand about the fairtax is not that it is a national sales tax, but that it is designed to replace ALL taxes, not just payroll and the current sales tax. Every product we buy is priced to reflect certain embedded taxes each manufacturer or reseller pays in the process of getting that product to you, be it payroll tax, or other corporate taxes - way too many for me to comprehend or even pretend like I comprehend, however it is very fair to say that a very significant portion of the price of each product we buy consists of taxes. Taxes are AWLAYS passed on to the customer. Each time a company has taxes increased, or new fees for some bullshit, they always hit YOU with the bill so that they can keep their bottom line from shrinking, and it's not necessarily fair to blame them of course.

Even Gas. GAS could and WOULD be cheaper, or at the very least stay the same with the only difference being that you see the real amount of tax you pay on each gallon and not all this "Includes all taxes" bullshit.

It's been postulated that if a corporation no longer has the tax burden, they MUST lower their prices - in the name of competition. That's the only real uncertain variable in this whole mess - will corporations fairly respond to not having the tax burden by removing it from their retail prices?

That's my two cents anyhow.

[ELVIS]

But what about the poor IRS agents who will be out on the street with no place to turn ????

It makes my heart bleed!!!!!!!!!!!

[fifth element]

National sales tax? I like the idea but when you consider what the sales tax would be to offset what they get in income tax it's a little scary.

Plus, would you tax all goods or only certain ones? Can you imagine buying a house and paying a sales tax on it? Or a car?

You should check out the book I read on the subject, if you are even mildly intregued.....
it definitely makes for some VERY interesting reading....

The Fair Tax Book: Saying Goodbye to the Income Tax and the IRS
written by Neal Boortz and John Linder

[ELVIS]

Sure...

But maybe in that atmosphere the overly inflated housing prices will come down closer to reality...

[Dr. Love]

As written, the proposed bill has a tax of aprox 20%, we recieve ALL of our paychecks back as well as not paying income tax,
it gets rid of ENORMOUS amounts of "tax law, and the areas that the government uses to "bury" obscure other information that they prefer remain hidden from the public.....

EVERYONE pays.
the rich, the middle class, the poor, visitors to the country, ILLEGAL visitors to the country........if you buy something, you pay tax on it
ALL PAY....

And Elvis, it would work....it WOULD decrease the deficit in a matter of 10 years or so, but you are right about one thing....the government does not want to give up the control...so the "Fairtax Bill", which has been proposed over and over again, and has backers from both the Republican and Democratic side, has simply faded away into something that only a very few of us have heard of....fewer still have done research on....

National sales tax? I like the idea but when you consider what the sales tax would be to offset what they get in income tax it's a little scary.

Plus, would you tax all goods or only certain ones? Can you imagine buying a house and paying a sales tax on it? Or a car?

[fifth element]

45% of the country pays no income tax

20% of the top earners in this country, pay 80% of the taxes in this country.

WTH do you GET your stats?