Peterson Trial & Abortion

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't see how you rested anything.

God regularly told the Israelites to slay whole armies and civilian populations in Canaan and other areas because they were Pagan worshippers and sacrificed their kids to these various 'gods' or other atrocities.

Capital punishment was fully endorsed by God in the Old Testament.

First of all, I don't accept that God fully endorsed anything in the Bible, because he/she didn't write the Bible, a collection of men did that had their own concerns, fears, prejudices, and limitations in their world views that were far less than all-knowing.

But assuming the Bible is the word of God, and not the word of divinely inspired, but very flawed men; What did God say about abortion?

[lms2]

Depends on if the fetus is unruly I guess????

Are these political issues, or moral ones?

[Warham]

Originally posted by lms2

Quoting the bible is also a tricky situation. They are not called the ten suggestions you know...but still, talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth. And then the interpretations as to whether such statments as any eye for an eye are metaphorical... God did some evil things to sinners. But he also forgave a good deal of them.

Evil is defined in the Bible as doing something against God's will. Therefore, God doesn't do evil acts because whatever He does is in accordance with his own will. If he wanted to wipe out a whole country, he has that right. As Bill Cosby said, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!"

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
First of all, I don't accept that God fully endorsed anything in the Bible, because he/she didn't write the Bible, a collection of men did that had their own concerns, fears, prejudices, and limitations in their world views that were far less than all-knowing.

But assuming the Bible is the word of God, and not the word of divinely inspired, but very flawed men; What did God say about abortion?

This is quoted from another site because it fits my view on the matter, and says it better than I could...

'In Psalm 106 God speaks specifically against killing innocent children and babies. He says of His people: They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood.

Today we may scoff, or wonder in disbelief how anyone, especially someone who claimed to follow God, could sacrifice their child to an idol or a demon. Yet, an idol is anything that we worship before God. Today, children are sacrificed to the idols of selfishness, convenience, "freedom," and ambition--sacrificed to the very demonic powers that are behind such idols. Times really haven't changed that much. Human nature hasn't changed, nor has Satan's schemes against that which God considered so precious that He died to redeem it--human life.'

[lms2]

Originally posted by Warham
Evil is defined in the Bible as doing something against God's will. Therefore, God doesn't do evil acts because whatever He does is in accordance with his own will. If he wanted to wipe out a whole country, he has that right. As Bill Cosby said, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!"

True, true... but isn't men judging men against God's will... thats why there is judgment day when we ALL be judged.

So I guess Cosby is pro abortion, even after birth abortion? LOL... I tell my kids the same dang thing.

[Warham]

In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!

[Warham]

Originally posted by lms2
True, true... but isn't men judging men against God's will... thats why there is judgment day when we ALL be judged.

So I guess Cosby is pro abortion, even after birth abortion? LOL... I tell my kids the same dang thing.

That quote by Jesus has been misunderstood in my opinion lms2.

I think what Jesus means in that quote you mention, 'judge not lest ye be judged', is that we are not to have a judgemental attitude because that's how Jesus will judge us when our time comes. There are certain people we all know who have an attitude that everybody else does everything wrong and they themselves do nothing wrong, ala their shit doesn't stink. That's what I think Christ was referring to. It's perfectly acceptable to point out the mistakes others make, but just make sure you are aware of your own failings.

My interpretation.

[Warham]

Also, scientific info from that site I quoted:

'Just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.'

This is why in my mind abortion is wrong. Who decides WHEN a child is considered viable inside the womb, and what standards does that person go by? His own?

Just my thoughts.

[lms2]

Originally posted by Warham
In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!

Yes, but does the fine get paid to the baby? Or to the woman? Or to the father of the child? Is the baby being respected in its own right as a person, or as the property of another?

[Warham]

Originally posted by lms2
Yes, but does the fine get paid to the baby? Or to the woman? Or to the father of the child? Is the baby being respected in its own right as a person, or as the property of another?

Here's the whole passage...

"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Ex. 21:22-25 The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.

[lms2]

I was asking for your interpretation of the passage as to the ownership of/respect for the life of the unborn child.

[Warham]

God owns the child, like He owns everything else.

[lms2]

Thats a good answer. It also pretty much settles the argument about whether life is life prior to its ability to survive outside the womb... or the issue of quality of life determining what is life. But then it does raise some other questions if you want to continue the discussion.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
First of all, I don't accept that God fully endorsed anything in the Bible, because he/she didn't write the Bible,

The Bible was the inspired Word of God and as such, is considered to be written by God. Lesson 1, Christianity 101.

[Warham]

Originally posted by lms2
Thats a good answer. It also pretty much settles the argument about whether life is life prior to its ability to survive outside the womb... or the issue of quality of life determining what is life. But then it does raise some other questions if you want to continue the discussion.

Sure, I'm up for it.