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Thread: New Translation of the Bible

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    New Translation of the Bible

    Getting the Bible back to its roots
    New Pentateuch translation from original Hebrew meanings
    Thursday, November 18, 2004 Posted: 9:49 AM EST (1449 GMT)


    LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- It is considered the most magisterial opening in English literature: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    But now a major revisionist translation of the Bible would have the cosmos begin with a more conversational clause: "When God began to create heaven and earth ... "

    And where the King James translation of Genesis had the earth begin "without form and void," the new translation of the Hebrew Bible says that the earth was "welter and waste."

    Biblical scholar Robert Alter's major new English translation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible -- alternately called the Five Books of Moses, the Torah or Pentateuch -- has some critics manning the barricades while others are applauding his efforts to return the work to its original Hebrew meanings and majestic repetitions.

    A professor at the University of California at Berkeley, Alter says since he has never found a biblical translation that he liked or could recommend to his comparative literature students, he decided to do his own, starting with the story of Genesis and ending with the death of Moses.

    His argument is that past translations either get the Hebrew wrong or mangle the Bible's syntax or lose the power of the work or even are so up-to-the-minute that they become too conversational to be accurate or interesting.

    He was also determined to get back into the book every single "and" that other translators left out, saying that part of book's majesty is built by its use of repetitions.

    The 1611 King James version, perhaps the most famous book ever written by a committee, may reach poetic heights, but Alter says it is fraught with "embarrassing inaccuracies" and often substitutes Greek or Latin words and Renaissance English tonalities and rhythms for biblical ones.

    'Concrete images'
    "Reading through this book is a wearying, disorientating and at times revelatory experience," said noted author John Updike in a review of Alter's 1,063-page translation of "The Five Books of Moses" (Norton) for the New Yorker magazine in which he complained about page after page of footnotes that often explain obscure points.

    Updike also took exception to some of the translation. For example, he is a lot happier with the King James version in which "the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water" than with Alter's version of the same sentence: "God's breath hovering over the waters."


    Biblical scholar Robert Alter decided to translate the Torah himself after he couldn't find a translation that satisfied him.
    But Alter, in an interview with Reuters, said he used the phrase "God's breath" rather than the "spirit of God" for a simple reason: "The Hebrew word means life's breath, a constant moving of oxygen in and out. The body-soul split of early Christianity is something not imagined in the early Hebrew."

    Alter said his task was to find the English equivalents of the Hebrew. "Hebrew is filled with concrete images. For example, the King James translates the famous lines of Ecclesiastes as 'vanity of vanities ... all is vanity' but the closest word in English to the Hebrew is 'vapor, vapor, all is mere vapor.' "

    Washington Post reviewer Michael Dirda said that some Bible translations are so simple-minded that Adam and Eve might as well be called Dick and Jane, but "Alter will have nothing to do with (such) dumbing-down.

    "This makes reading his version of the Torah ... thrilling and constantly illuminating: After the still, small voices of so many tepid modern translations, here is a whirlwind."

    Alter said he was especially pleased with restoring all the "ands" back in a passage where Abraham's servant is sent on a mission to find a wife for Isaac and encounters Rebekah:

    "And she came down to the spring and filled her jug and came back up. And the servant ran toward her and said, 'Pray, let me sip a bit of water from your jug.' And she said, 'Drink, my lord,' and she hurried and tipped down her jug on one hand and let him drink. And she let him drink his fill and said, 'For your camels, too, I shall draw water until they drink their fill.' And she hurried and emptied her jug into the trough, and she ran again to the well to draw water and drew water for all his camels."

    The 15 "ands" manage to build a picture of what Alter calls "the closest anyone comes in Genesis to a feat of 'Homeric' heroism" -- especially when one considers how much a camel drinks.

    Alter added: "I began this translation as a kind of dubious experiment asking, 'Is there some (method) of getting Biblical Hebrew into modern English in a way that would be readable but not be too contemporary sounding and reproduce many of the stylish effects of the Hebrew?' "

    Some critics think he found the way. And how.

    Copyright 2004 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

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    Oy vey, yet another translation?

    Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

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    Originally posted by FORD
    Oy vey, yet another translation?

    Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself.
    Thanks to your split personality!!!!!


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    Originally posted by FORD
    Oy vey, yet another translation?

    Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself.
    Unfortunately, Jesus isn't much one for direct confrontation on the double-standards and mysteries in his book, so I really wouldn't recommend it - would you?
    Twistin' by the pool.

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    Food for thought
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    The best part in the new addition is at the beginning on page one:

    "All characters in this publication are fictitious and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

    They left that out of the original translation.
    Achtung Baby I say, I say...

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    That sounds awesome!

    Good find, Nick...



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    Originally posted by secrets
    The best part in the new addition is at the beginning on page one:

    "All characters in this publication are fictitious and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

    They left that out of the original translation.
    **prepares a plague of locusts......***


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    Originally posted by bueno bob
    Unfortunately, Jesus isn't much one for direct confrontation on the double-standards and mysteries in his book, so I really wouldn't recommend it - would you?
    There are no double standards with Me. Only misinterpretations, My son.

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    Originally posted by Jesus Christ
    There are no double standards with Me. Only misinterpretations, My son.
    Jesus, I whipped your ass so hard the last time we debated religious theory you ran off with your tail between your legs!

    HAIL SATAN!

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    That, I highly doubt...

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    Verily...

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    That, I highly doubt...
    He disappeared in a cloud of dust the last time I discussed several of the numerous inconsistancies in Christian dogma...oh, but I'm sure the great Lord has better things to do with his glorious time than to actually debate someone with intelligence and be confronted with specifics, hmm?

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    Bob, an empty wagon makes a lot of noise.

    Know what I mean?

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    Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
    Bob, an empty wagon makes a lot of noise.

    Know what I mean?
    And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

    Know what I mean?

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    Originally posted by Jesus Christ
    **prepares a plague of locusts......***

    Which strangely never arrives.

    Meanwhile millions of innocent children die of starvation and disease in Africa.

    Funny that...

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    Which strangely never arrives.

    Meanwhile millions of innocent children die of starvation and disease in Africa.

    Funny that...
    No it's not funny, My son. But it is the way that I told you it would be......

    Matthew 24
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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    Food for thought
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    Originally posted by bueno bob
    And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

    Know what I mean?
    5 star vote. That is pure poetry.

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    Thanks, Secrets Here's a five star your way as well.

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    Originally posted by Jesus Christ
    No it's not funny, My son. But it is the way that I told you it would be......

    Matthew 24
    blah blah blah...
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Easy to see why God's so loving, isn't it? "Since I love you, you just suffer all this shit gladly and I'll reward you in Heaven; how do you know Heaven actually exists and there is a God and I'm His son? Well, just take my word for it, OK? That's all ya need...trust me..."

    Essentially, that's what it all boils down to when you get right down to it, IMO.

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    Ok, so you religion haters don't dig the Bible, Koran, or the Torah. Fine.

    Attacking believers of these religions/doctrines is just as intolerant and dumb as you claim we are of your secular lifestyles and/or beliefs.

    My relationship with God (in the Christian faith) is personal and my choice. I don't care what other folks do with their lives; I can only answer for my life. Neither do I try to force my beliefs onto others. If folks are interested in Christianity and ask me about it, I'll tell them what it means to me.

    It should be like that across the board with any lifestyle choice.
    "He doesn't need to sell millions of records, he doesn't need to fill arenas, he doesn't need to be popular, he doesn't need your money, AND HE DOESN'T NEED YOU!"
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    Originally posted by FORD
    Oy vey, yet another translation?

    Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself.
    The only problem is FORD, when you assume your Jesus identity you trash the Old Testament when the real Jesus would never do such a thing.

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    Originally posted by bueno bob
    And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

    Know what I mean?
    I'll always try to debate you intelligently, Bob. At your discretion, of course. I don't shy away from debating my beliefs.

  23. #23
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    Time to break out the Buddy Christ and a New American Version translation...

    "First, there was, like, space an' stuff. Then teh 1337 G-Unit went all BOOMSHAKALAKA and made teh waturz and the beach, but it was all plain an' stuff, like level 3 in Quake, without trees or people or Starbucks."

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    Originally posted by Jesus Christ
    **prepares a plague of locusts......***

    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    Which strangely never arrives.

    Locusts plague southern Israel

    Fri Nov 19, 2:11 PM ET Mideast - AFP

    JERUSALEM (AFP) - Swarms of locusts descended over the southern Israeli town of Eilat, official sources reported after night-fall.


    The authorities had expected the insects to swarm in over the farming belt in the Negev, north of Eilat, and dozens of residents telephoned the local municipality to alert the council to the unwelcome migrants.


    The agriculture ministry told army radio that it was ready to enact its emergency anti-locust plan and scramble aircraft to spray insecticide.


    In Rome, the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation warned earlier Friday that a small number of locust swarms could cross from northern Egypt into Israel and the Palestinian territories.


    The crop-ravaging insects, which have this month been reported in Cyprus, northern Egypt and Lebanon, were last seen in Israel in the 1950s.



    Swarms of locusts obscure the Giza pyramids near Cairo, November 17, 2004. Swarms of pink locusts swept through Cairo on Wednesday that recalled the plague of biblical Egypt, flying high above tall towers and scaring pedestrians who stamped on them or ran for cover. REUTERS/Aladin Abdel Naby
    Roth Army Militia

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    Originally posted by Switch84
    Ok, so you religion haters don't dig the Bible, Koran, or the Torah. Fine.

    Attacking believers of these religions/doctrines is just as intolerant and dumb as you claim we are of your secular lifestyles and/or beliefs.

    My relationship with God (in the Christian faith) is personal and my choice. I don't care what other folks do with their lives; I can only answer for my life. Neither do I try to force my beliefs onto others. If folks are interested in Christianity and ask me about it, I'll tell them what it means to me.

    It should be like that across the board with any lifestyle choice.
    Religionists, or superstitious people more accurately, have persecuted a hell of a lot more people over the years than atheists.

    When you think about it Atheist actually is a dumb term as it means someone that doesn't believe in God yet there is no word for someone that doesn't believe in elves and pixies.

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    Religionists, or superstitious people more accurately, have persecuted a hell of a lot more people over the years than atheists.

    When you think about it Atheist actually is a dumb term as it means someone that doesn't believe in God yet there is no word for someone that doesn't believe in elves and pixies.

    :p Atheist isn't a term I use. Condescendingly ridiculing people's beliefs isn't something I do, either. You seem to have issues with people that practice a religion, which isn't any of your concern, just like you rant about people choosing a sexual preference isn't of anyone else's concern (outside of the parties involved.)

    Mankind in general has been cruel to all, regardless of how you pray (or not), fuck (or not), and vote (or not.)

    Now quit your bitching and fix DDLR, DAMN IT!


    ROFLMMFAOBT!

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    I find the term "superstitious" slightly offending, but, that's ok...

    I assure you, Sesh, that God, as is all supernatural, is real...

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    Originally posted by ELVIS
    I find the term "superstitious" slightly offending, but, that's ok...

    I assure you, Sesh, that God, as is all supernatural, is real...
    It also implies a certain arrogent school of thought that nothing beyond your immidiate senses can exist or be real.

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    Correct...

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    Originally posted by Switch84
    :p Atheist isn't a term I use. Condescendingly ridiculing people's beliefs isn't something I do, either. You seem to have issues with people that practice a religion, which isn't any of your concern, just like you rant about people choosing a sexual preference isn't of anyone else's concern (outside of the parties involved.)
    Not at all, I would be much more polite in real life than the internet.

    Hell I have an old friend that's a minister that stays with us often.

    I'm just playing devils advocate here. Too many people seem to buy into religion as a wholesale package, put it in a box and then think good I don't need to worry about life the universe and everything any more.

    I can appreciate that stance since life can suck and we all need our crutches.

    The downside is one day a bunch of folk start crashing planes into buildings because they think they'll get to fuck the brains out of virgins.

    Or applying their faith to running the most powerful country in the world. Just because I have no proof of something I believe it exists even if it's WMD's.

    Cheers!


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    Hmmm...

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    Originally posted by Seshmeister
    Not at all, I would be much more polite in real life than the internet.

    I believe that...

    Hell I have an old friend that's a minister that stays with us often.

    If he's a real man of God he should try to rerach you in some aspect...

    I trust he probably has...


    I'm just playing devils advocate here.

    I hear ya...

    Too many people seem to buy into religion as a wholesale package, put it in a box and then think good I don't need to worry about life the universe and everything any more.

    Please do not put me in that category...

    I can appreciate that stance since life can suck and we all need our crutches.

    That's where we differ, It's not a crutch...

    The downside is one day a bunch of folk start crashing planes into buildings because they think they'll get to fuck the brains out of virgins.

    I don't have the answer to that, but I do believe that it was not of Gods will...

    Or applying their faith to running the most powerful country in the world.

    ???

    Just because I have no proof of something I believe it exists even if it's WMD's.

    ???

    Cheers!




  33. #33
    Loon
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    Just curious Seshmeister, are you and atheist, agnostic, or a believer (even a believer in a unconventional "low church" sense).

  34. #34
    Irresistible BITCH
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    LOL! Sesh, the folks that give up all reasoning and use religion as a 'crutch' got lost in the translation! Thinking for yourself and being responsible for the choices you make in life is what you have 'free will' for. That old excuse 'the Devil made me do it' is utter and total BULLSHIT! Nobody (or entity) makes you do shit.

    Those folks use religion to escape from reality. I use it as a spiritual resource library to assist me when I need it.

  35. #35
    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

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    Originally posted by Nickdfresh
    Just curious Seshmeister, are you and atheist, agnostic, or a believer (even a believer in a unconventional "low church" sense).
    I've gone from agnostic to atheist over the last few years.

    To be honest it sucks but there you go. Noone is more disappointed about it than me.

    I read a lot of science and theology and religion is a house of cards.

    I have my moral code and I think I'm nicer to my fellow man than your average person...

    I've only met a few 'real' Christians in my time and I admired them. I'm talking the guys that really go for it in their actions. If everyone was like that the world would be a much better place whether there was any truth in it or not.

    Funnily enough the ones that did the whole soup kitchen, turn the other cheek, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle people never tried to preach to me...

    Cheers!



  36. #36
    SensibleShoes
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    Now there's a wise man. You're closer to God than you know. Some of the worst Christians I know belong to churches. Sometimes the biggest thing wrong with faith is organized religion.

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    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

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    I saw a post here recently where they said "Hey I may be wrong about Christianity and it's all bullshit but if it exists I'm sorted and if it doesn't then I've lost nothing"

    I thought that was funny. Kind of missing the point as I understood it but honest and probably the way most people are when you strip everything away.

    I'm sticking my neck out here and saying bullshit...

    Cheers!


  38. #38
    SensibleShoes
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    Heh. Cover your ass in all instances, eh?

    I guess I just think that faith or God or whatever is much MUCH more simple than people think it is. The more you strip down your belief system and just go out and live every day, the closer you get to what it's supposed to be like We all think too fucking much.

    I just really don't think any kind of supreme being would give TWO SHITS about being worshiped. If there is one, and he made the earth and made us - then the mandate is to go out and live in it - enjoy it - make the most of what you're given and procreate. Then you die. That ALONE is a hell of a thing.

    If everybody would quit agonizing about a bunch of scrolls that are hopelessly outdated and badly translated, we'd all be a lot better off. 99 percent of it is just common sense anyway.

  39. #39
    Loon
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    Thomas Jefferson, the real father of America, was an agnostic. He didn't believe in standard Christian doctrine, but he believed that Jesus was a great philosopher even if he wasn't the son of God.

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    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

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    Yeah.

    You don't need the cloud with the white beard you can do it logically with common sense.

    Bastards are always intrinsically unhappy people.

    People that are envious, or takers or bitches may end up monetarily richer but what's the point of the extra room in your house if you're worrying about the guy down the street with a pool.

    I saw a documentary years ago about a computer competition. What they did was they got all these top programmers and gave them this scenario. They had to design a virtual person(bot) who had a limitless bag of cookies. When they encountered another person in the program they could either give them a cookie or not based on the code that they wrote. For example you could say my guy always takes but doesn't give or my guy always gives.

    The winner was the one who got the most cookies.

    They unleashed a couple of hundred of these into a virtual environment and let it run for a few days. All these brilliant computer scientists had come up with incredibly complex algorithms. The one that won by a mile had the least code.

    All it did was always give the first time it met another bot. If it got a cookie back it would remember and give again to the same bot. If it didn't it didn't.

    Morality can be logical without supernatural stuff.

    This post was brought to you by Havana Club Rum.

    Cheers!


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