http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
Here's a website that chronicles all of John Kerry's anti-war activities upon his return from Vietnam. Although this site is decidedly biased, if even a fraction of this is true, it is grounds for a charge of treason. After reading this, tell me if you want somebody like this in the highest office in the land.
I'm no fan of Judas, but if you're going to consider his protest of the Vietnam war as "treason", then how do you categorize the numerous examples of the BCE's treasonous duplicity in the Middle East. From the relationship to the Bin Laden family that stretches back to the 60's, to Cheney's Halliburton contracts with Iraq, while that country was considered both an enemy, and under official sanctions.
The answer's simple. Don't vote for either traitor.
Eat Us And Smile
Cenk For America 2024!!
Justice Democrats
"If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992
"treason" has started to become a conservative buzzword to refer to anything somebody consider's "anti-american."
yet the great thing about a free country, such as america, is that the only REAL anti-american sentiment is the one that tries to force you not to have your own particular sentiment.
there's a quote somewhere, "i disagree with what you say, but i'll defend to the death your right to say it." THAT'S what makes america the greatest...
Now come on KB, you know that's not true.
How many Americans have the current Administration charged with treason? In a clear cut case (with Johnie bin Walker), they opted for a less serious charge. How many serious calls for treason trials have eminated from anyone on the right? There's a buzz word with treason allright, it's the libs trying some reverse-psychology bullshit bringing up these phony "treason" questions (supposedly coming from various "right-wing" groups or individuals) for everyone (hopefully active voters) to ponder (while thinking of Joe McCarthy, naturally). It's typical political behavior, and you do know better. I at least know this about you.
Oh, and Kerry is a fucking traitor, right there with Hanoi Jane...
sorry, man. i didn't mean that the administration or that all conservatives use it as a buzzword. i just meant that some of the "talking head" conservatives (who in no way represent all conservatives) like to throw around the "treason" word.
and hell, it's possible that some of the other side plant the treason stories. there are plenty of good politicians out there, and plenty of bad ones...
You don't call a fireman who did a heroic deed who later turns to arson a hero. John Kerry stabbed his brothers-in-arms in the back when he came back and bad mouthed THEM, not withstanding what he said about his country.
“If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You don't call a fireman who did a heroic deed who later turns to arson a hero. John Kerry stabbed his brothers-in-arms in the back when he came back and bad mouthed THEM, not withstanding what he said about his country.
I've had to eat MRE's for days at a stretch dying for a can of spam. It's like a gourmet treat.Originally posted by Pink Spider
My problem with it is that he is now trumpeting his military service after he basically said he was ashamed of it.
That and he is a pal of the Kennedy's. Make me puke!!!
"Don't try to confuse the issue with half truths and gorilla dust." - Bill NcNeal
Traitor ?? Treason ??
You guys need to rethink those statements...
Kerry performed his duty in Vietnam, and with valor I might add...
You don't get Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, and Purple Hearts just sitting in a foxhole pounding your pud (although the latest Gulf War's medal awarding criteria is certainly questionable)....
He did what he was ordered to do, as opposed to your current President, who got his Daddy to pull his political strings to get him out of going to Vietnam.... Whether his ANG AWOL charge holds up, that's just icing on the cake, if proved true... The fact of the matter is that Bush didn't even go over there because of family connections....
So when Kerry returns to the States, after what he has seen during his tour in Vietnam (something that Dubya couldn't do), he has the Constitutional right to free speech, in which he protests the U.S.'s presence in Vietnam....
The point is this: If Kerry had never done his tour in Vietnam, and THEN he protested the war, a 'la Clinton, I'd have a major problem with that...
But the fact that he did his time, then made his opinions known about our involvement in the war, I think he had every right to do so....
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Simply protesting any war is fine and dandy. I'm no fan of how the Vietnam war was carried out either (who ran that war again?). Anyway, protesting "Hanoi Jane" style is treasonous. The fucking commies themselves said it was an effective part of their doctrine to exploit idiots like Jane Fonda and John F-ing Kerry! Their bullshit directly lead to prolonged torture and murder of American servicemen. This is not a debatable "perspective", this is well documented fact. A fact told by the survivors of places like the "Hanoi Hilton". It's actually offensive to have someone like John Kerry in our Senate, let alone Commander in Chief.
next thing he'll be saying is that he's allergic to gerbils, we all know that aint right !Originally posted by SilvioDante
My problem with it is that he is now trumpeting his military service after he basically said he was ashamed of it.
That and he is a pal of the Kennedy's. Make me puke!!!
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Simply protesting any war is fine and dandy. I'm no fan of how the Vietnam war was carried out either (who ran that war again?). Anyway, protesting "Hanoi Jane" style is treasonous. The fucking commies themselves said it was an effective part of their doctrine to exploit idiots like Jane Fonda and John F-ing Kerry! Their bullshit directly lead to prolonged torture and murder of American servicemen. This is not a debatable "perspective", this is well documented fact. A fact told by the survivors of places like the "Hanoi Hilton". It's actually offensive to have someone like John Kerry in our Senate, let alone Commander in Chief.
I'm with ya in reference to Fonda....
Obviously you do more research on this topic than I do... Do you have a link or something that links Kerry to the treatment of POW's ??
Kerry Teamed Up With Fonda's 'FUCK the Army' Cast
When Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry teamed up with 'Hanoi' Jane Fonda and actor Donald Sutherland for a September 1970 anti-Vietnam War protest at Valley Forge, Pa., he was joining the same cast that Fonda had assembled earlier that year for her "F*** the Army" tour – a kind of reverse USO tour designed to undermine the morale of U.S. soldiers fighting in the jungles of Southeast Asia.
This alone is a "guilt by association" that has traction... You can scream "Fuck the President" all you want during wartime (although I wouldn't recommend it), but screaming "Fuck the soldiers dying to protect my right to be an idiot!" is disgusting really. And we all know the effect goups like this had on morale.
On Friday, Kerry suggested that he had no idea how radical Fonda would eventually become, telling radio host Don Imus that he thought her decision to turn against her country by traveling to Hanoi 18 months after Valley Forge was "terrible."
But by the time Kerry agreed to follow the anti-American actress and Sutherland onto the same stage 34 years ago, Fonda's anti-military road show was already well known to both soldiers stationed in Vietnam and those who had returned home.
In "Winter Soldier: An Oral History of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War," author Richard Stacewicz notes that when Fonda and Kerry addressed the Valley Forge rally – as depicted in the now infamous photo published by NewsMax on Monday – Fonda's military-bashing credentials were already well-established.
"Fonda was becoming very well known at that point for her support of the GI movement. She and Donald Sutherland had been going around to GI bases for a while with the FTA show ["F *** the Army," a spoof of USO shows that was performed just outside bases]," writes Stacewicz.
Fonda's role as a kind of reverse Bob Hope is confirmed in the Vietnam veterans history "Stolen Valor," by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley.
"Fonda was involved in an organization called F.T.A., which we all knew stood for 'F--k the Army,'" Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, reports.
Though both Fonda and Kerry are now both claiming their contact was minimal at Valley Forge and afterward, in fact, while the Massachusetts Democrat served as the VVAW's leading spokesman under the title "National Coordinator," Fonda was named the group's "Honorary National Coordinator," according to two histories of the VVAW, Andrew Hunt's "The Turning" and Gerald Nicosia's "Home to War."
With her celebrity drawing power, Fonda became Kerry's leading fund-raiser at the VVAW, traveling the country to tout the group's mission to expose so-called U.S. war crimes in Vietnam.
The effort culminated in the next Kerry-Fonda collaboration, the "Winter Soldier Investigation," which she financed and where Kerry and other members of the VVAW tried to elicit the most gruesome testimony possible from combat veterans. More than a few Winter Soldier witnesses later turned out to be complete impostors.
Al Hubbard, VVAW's executive secretary, was also one of the principal organizers of the Winter Soldier event. His supposed combat heroism had earned him mythical status within the organization, writes author Hunt. He and Kerry would later go on to appear side-by side on NBC's "Meet the Press" to denounce the war.
But as "Stolen Valor" author Burkett explained to the Wall Street Journal last month, his research showed that Hubbard had grossly inflated his combat credentials.
"Hubbard claimed to be an Air Force pilot who was wounded in Vietnam. Truth: Hubbard was never a pilot, never an officer, never wounded and never assigned to Vietnam," said Burkett.
Hubbard is also featured prominently in Kerry's 1971 book about the group's April 1971 Washington, D.C., protest, "The New Soldier," where he and Kerry appear in a photo together on the same stage as Ramsey Clark.
In several calls last week to the Kerry campaign, NewsMax.com requested financial records from the Winter Soldier Investigation, including Kerry's tax returns from 1970 and expense records for the event, to determine to what extent – if any – he may have personally benefited from Fonda's largesse.
The calls have not been returned.
Link: here
Dude, there's lots and lots of credible associations made between "The New JFK" and Fonda. Just the fact that Kerry labled the fighting men in Vietnam as "daily participants in civilian massacres" during his testimony to Congress puts him on level playing ground with Fonda, IMHO.
Now wait a minute.....
If Fonda was performing these "FTA" shows for the soldiers, then how could she be disrespecting them? :confused:
Disrespecting the pentagon's policies and the war, definitely.
Hell, I despise the current fascist globalist war policy. But I certainly don't extend that to the individuals wearing the uniform.
As for Judas discussing the participation in civilian massacre, since he was a participant himself in such actions, I guess that qualifies him to speak about it.
Or would you prefer that the Bush Criminal Empire (which Junior and Nixon were both frontmen for) is able to lie about what takes place in their wars with impunity and NEVER be called on their actions, no matter how illegal and repulsive?
Dude, weak. Are you saying Jane's interest was that of the average soldier?
So, what did Jane ask the "guests" of the Hanoi Hilton when visiting? What did she do with the list of the names of all "guests" when secretly palmed to her?
I know this was a little later in her fine career of "helping" the serviceman, but your revisionism still ain't gonna work here.
Yeah, you're confused alright. She was taunting soldiers, degrading their morale, not performing for them.Originally posted by FORD
Now wait a minute.....
If Fonda was performing these "FTA" shows for the soldiers, then how could she be disrespecting them? :confused:
From vikingphoenix.com:
Jane Fonda seated at anti-aircraft gun in North Vietnam, 1972.
These guns were used to shoot down American airplanes and to kill American pilots and aircrew.
This photo shows Jane Fonda with about 12-13 Vietnamese, probably the regular gun crew surrounded by photographers and reporters and bystanders from the People's Army of Vietnam. Three bystanders are in civilian dress. The photograph was taken during Fonda's trip to Vietnam with Tom Hayden. During her visit Fonda spoke on Radio Hanoi and American POW were forced to listen. Fonda and Hayden married and had one child, Troi (the actor Troy Garrity) named after a Vietnamese. Hayden is now a California politician. He received financial backing from Fonda after their marriage ended and Fonda was married to CNN/Time news executive Ted Turner.
If only we had bombed that particular site at that particular moment...
If only we wouldn't bomb anyone who was not a legitimate threat to the United States. And apart from a roving band of Bush created terrorists who can't be linked to any one country, that hasn't happenned since 1945.
You're lost in a dream!Originally posted by FORD
If only we wouldn't bomb anyone who was not a legitimate threat to the United States. And apart from a roving band of Bush created terrorists who can't be linked to any one country, that hasn't happenned since 1945.
WAKE THE HELL UP!!!!
Man, that's one FUCKED UP BITCH.
You want Fonda Bombed! Roger that!
SOMEONE PLAY "INTRUDER" FOR ME! I'M GOING IN!
[IMG]us_mil_a6_01.jpg[/IMG]
Damnit! The picture won't show!
see if this works
Yeah! That's 13,500 lbs. of MK-82's that's gonna give hanoi jane the biggest bang of her life! LOL
You guys rock! I'm still laughing! And I'm also a little pumped at the thought of an A6 bearing in on Hanoi Jane and her commie-cronies while cranking Intruder! Hanoi Jane was and is and will always be a threat to the United States of America. As is "The New JFK"...
Watch out John there is a red under your bed.
Bring back McCarthy he had the right idea about freedom.
Cheers!
I don't think Kerry is a traitor. he executed his rights and took a stand. I didn't agree with the way he stabbed his comrades in the back while doing it but he isn't guilty of treason...He's guilty of being an asshole.
The only thing anyone needs to know about John Kerry is NOT to vote for him.
As for Hanoi Jane, if she is talking then my cock isn't deep enough in her throat........Suck It and Shut Up, Bitch!
FYI:
There are two photos going around the net of Kerry and Fonda.
Photo 1; 1970 Kerry is at a general anti-war rally (with many other veterans) and Jane Fonda happened to be there. A photograph of Fonda was taken and a fuzzy image of Kerry can be seen in the background.
The other image is a Photoshop (aka: doctored) job. Kerry was NEVER friends with Jane Fonda. and no photographs of the two exist after 1970. Jane Fonda did not visit N. Vietnam till 1973.
These are the facts... roll with em.
Last edited by steve; 02-16-2004 at 01:32 AM.
Yep, drudge ran the "doctored" story front and center (so much for the "Right Wing Zealot" title...)
And steve, Kerry's testimony to Congress is a problem. His account has been refuted by many of his veteran peers. His relationship with Fonda is also well documented so one doctored photo means nothing.
Now Sesh, Joe McCarthy was right. 'Nuff said. Now when are you limey's gonna grow your balls back and elect a Prime Minister like Thatcher again? Or rather, when's your Queen gonna annoint one...
No. Kerry's account may have been refuted by his veteren "peers", but those peers were the military political brass - aka: politicians like MacNamara.
Kerry's account is the HISTORICAL account. Every single solitary movie made about Vietnam (Hamburger Hill, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, the list goes on)- movies that all were based on heavey research, reveal a historical pattern. It was an ugly war. The United States military leadership conducted many many horrible operations there. Certainly there are varying arguments about what type of mistakes were made in the war, but to use a word like "refuted" is kind of extreme.
I am confused what you mean by "refuted". Clearly, there is some reason as to why most historical accounts view the war not only as a quagmire, but a vast web of unethical war-making policy by the U.S. leadership including Nixon and MacNamara.
Nah, don't believe the hype brother. And please don't resort to using Hollywood to support your argument, as it makes you look silly...
hmmm...
"Hollywood" as a conservative buzzword meant to discredit any argument concerning art's interpretation of history?
No, I don't buy that.
If the films I referenced were fiction (like say, something Arnold S. made) then yes, your comment would be valid.
However, I am referencing a wide range of historical/interpretive movies in which most of the characters and all of the events are based on real people. "Born On the Fourth Of July", for instance was a Hollywood movie, yes, but most importantly it was a real person's story about the government turning it's back on it's soldiers.
History channel had a documentary on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial a couple years ago. It documented how a lot of people in government were against it, including Richard Nixon.
Last edited by steve; 02-16-2004 at 02:04 PM.
For instance...
try to name one single piece of art that references Vietnam in a positive manner.
I can't think of a single one.
At any rate, my point is that one cannot just merely say "he was refuted" if the vast accounts of history say he was not. If you say Kerry was refuted, one has to first admit that they are a tiny fraction of a tiny minority, and furthermore actually make an argument why they think what they think.
I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am just curious as to your thoughts, please.
Last edited by steve; 02-16-2004 at 02:09 PM.
My Lai Massacre
On March 16, 1968 the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the village of My Lai. "This is what you've been waiting for -- search and destroy -- and you've got it," said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public.
My Lai lay in the South Vietnamese district of Son My, a heavily mined area of Vietcong entrenchment. Numerous members of Charlie Company had been maimed or killed in the area during the preceding weeks. The agitated troops, under the command of Lt. William Calley, entered the village poised for engagement with the elusive Vietcong.
As the "search and destroy" mission unfolded it soon degenerated into the massacre of over 300 apparently unarmed civilians including women, children, and the elderly. Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped, and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.
Word of the massacre did not reach the American public until November of 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with ex-GI and Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.
As the gruesome details of the massacre reached the American public serious questions arose concerning the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. A military commission investigating the My Lai massacre found widespread failures of leadership, discipline, and morale among the Army's fighting units. As the war progressed, many "career" soldiers had either been rotated out or retired. Many more had died. In their place were scores of draftees whose fitness for leadership in the field of battle was questionable at best. Military officials blamed inequities in the draft policy for the often slim talent pool from which they were forced to choose leaders. Many maintained that if the educated middle class ("the Harvards," as they were called) had joined in the fight, a man of Lt. William Calley's emotional and intellectual stature would never have been issuing orders.
Calley, an unemployed college dropout, had managed to graduate from Officer's Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1967. At his trial, Calley testified that he was ordered by Captain Ernest Medina to kill everyone in the village of My Lai. Still, there was only enough photographic and recorded evidence to convict Calley, alone, of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison, but was released in 1974, following many appeals. After being issued a dishonorable discharge, Calley entered the insurance business.
Thursday, 26 April, 2001
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1298289.stm
Senator 'admits Vietnam massacre'
The US is still dealing with the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict
Former United States Senator Bob Kerry, a possible contender for the White House in 2004, has admitted that his commando unit massacred civilians when he was a Navy officer in Vietnam, The New York Times has reported.
Mr Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star for the 25 February 1969 action in the village of Thanh Phong in the Mekong Delta.
Basically you're talking about a man who killed innocent civilians
John Kerry
Bob Kerry
The two-time Democratic senator from Nebraska says his unit of seven Navy Seals - elite commando troops - killed at least 13 women and children during indiscriminate night-time firing.
One of the men under his command at the time disputes Mr Kerry's version of events, claiming that the unit rounded up the civilians and killed them to hasten their escape.
Mr Kerry refused to contradict the man, saying their memories differed.
In-depth investigation
Mr Kerry, who stepped down from the US Senate in January and is now president of the New School University in New York, admitted his role in the massacre over the course of more than two years of interviews with The New York Times.
Mr Kerry said he has been haunted by Vietnam memories
A possible presidential candidate, Mr Kerry said it would be "very interesting to see the reactions to the story. I mean, because basically you're talking about a man who killed innocent civilians."
It is not clear what effect the revelations would have on any decision that Mr Kerry might make to run for office in the future.
In Mr Kerry's version of events, his group approached Thanh Phong near midnight on 25 February, 1969.
They encountered a hut on their approach, and men under his command entered it and killed the people inside.
Mr Kerry denied participating in the killings, but took responsibility for them as commanding officer.
Indiscriminate firing
When his group reached the village, they were fired upon in the darkness and shot back, firing some 1,200 rounds.
When they investigated after they stopped shooting, he said, they found they had killed a number of women and children. There were no adult men among the dead.
Gerhard Klann, a more experienced soldier who was under Mr Kerry's command at the time, remembers events differently.
He said Mr Kerry helped him kill an old man and woman and three children at the first hut, and that the unit then rounded up and shot the women and children of Thanh Phong to prevent them raising the alarm.
The Army Field Manual explicitly forbids killing prisoners "on grounds of self-preservation", but many people who served in Vietnam said the unwritten rules of the conflict made it clear that such actions were acceptable.
Witnesses
A Vietnamese woman who says she was an eyewitness supported Mr Klann's story.
The only other member of the commando unit willing to speak to the press about the raid supported some elements of each account and contradicted others.I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you - I think killing for your country can be a lot worse
Bob Kerry
Mr Kerry - who was given the Medal of Honour for a later operation and lost a leg to a grenade in the conflict - says he has been wracked by guilt for 32 years since the event.
"I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you," he told The New York Times, referring to how he felt before he went to Vietnam as a 25-year-old lieutenant.
"I think killing for your country can be a lot worse. Because that's the memory that haunts."
The New York Times magazine will publish its full investigation into the incident on Sunday. The CBS television series 60 Minutes II, which collaborated on the report, will broadcast a programme on it on 1 May.
Last edited by Seshmeister; 02-16-2004 at 04:06 PM.
Thanks for the update on this well-known story. Any rugby scores over there to report?
Not any good ones...
Sorry Steve, missed this one.
I'm not labeling the Vietnam (or any war) as a "good" one. I'll be the first to admit that the whole thing was one giant cluster fuck of an operation from the get-go (didn't you get my "who ran that operation anyway?" jab?) It's what happens when you let politicians, not military officers, run wars. Far more soldiers were killed due to politicians like Kerry, than Vietnamese citizens were killed by the stars of your "documentaries". Atrocities were commited by both sides, undoubtably. But let's face it, even the History Channel has to "sex up" their documentaries to make them watchable (although I'll admit they do it far less than "Born on the 4th"). Speaking of which, have you seen their documentaries on Saddam Hussein?
Anyway, no war is pretty, but to label the American servicemen as war criminals is just plain ridiculous. And what's the point? For every supposed attrocity commited by the G.I., there are a hundred thousand commited by these piss-ant communist dictatorships and their thugs. Why not steer your invective towards them? What's the deal? It's quite clear what the deal is, it's a thinly veiled hatred for the United States. This is why I don't consider anything out of hollywood to be anything else but entertainment. I most certainly wouldn't base my position on their version of any event.
And Sesh, since when did you start caring about the American Serviceman?
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