Dean Responds to Bush's PR Campaign on Immigration

[FORD]

Dean Responds to Bush's PR Campaign on Immigration
May 15, 2006

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean issued the following statement on the President's address on immigration tonight:

"After more than five years of sitting on the sidelines it's noteworthy that tonight the President finally joined the call from Democrats for comprehensive immigration reform. Unfortunately, at a time when we needed real leadership, we once again heard a political PR campaign filled with an unrealistic short-term fix, rather than a detailed long term solution.

"Once again the President tried to hide the truth about his guest worker program, which would force immigrants into indentured servitude and fail to protect U.S. workers and their wages. For what little substance the President did offer, he left out critical answers on practicality and cost, at a time when our national debt and budget deficits are at record highs and our national guard is stretched thin.

"What's worse, the President failed to denounce the House Republicans' plan to criminalize immigrants, families, doctors, and even clergy, leaving many to question whether or not he will stand up to the extremists in his party.

"The President's lack of leadership and tonight's band-aid approach to border security was more of the same. The American people are looking for substance not sound bites. Democrats have been consistent and will continue to fight for comprehensive immigration reform that is both tough and smart. That means reform that strengthens our borders. It means reform that protects U.S. workers and their wages, reunites families, and allows hard working immigrants who pay taxes and obey the law the opportunity to apply for the responsibilities of citizenship."

[Big Train]

Yes, the "citizens" want Amnesty...

[DrMaddVibe]

Thanks for the soundbite Dr. "Demento Screamo" Dean!

http://www.bio.utexas.edu/faculty/jost/deanflash.mp3

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Just out of curiosity, who is going to enforce this Amnesty program. Do these dumb ass politicians think that if a reform bill is passed, these illegal aliens are going to run right in and sign up to become taxpayers? What a joke. That is one of the main reasons they come over here. I personally would love to work tax free, but that is not reality for a legal middle class American citizen. As a matter of fact, if I refused to pay taxes I would be thrown in jail. Now I just heard American banks are bending over backwards to help illegal's get housing in this country.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ULTRAMAN VH
Just out of curiosity, who is going to enforce this Amnesty program. Do these dumb ass politicians think that if a reform bill is passed, these illegal aliens are going to run right in and sign up to become taxpayers? What a joke. That is one of the main reasons they come over here. I personally would love to work tax free, but that is not reality for a legal middle class American citizen. As a matter of fact, if I refused to pay taxes I would be thrown in jail. Now I just heard American banks are bending over backwards to help illegal's get housing in this country.

...and education. We shell out $7.4 Billion annually to educate these illegal bastards from grades K-12. Alot of states even subsidize their college education at "in state" rates. I thought only legal citizens of that state were entitled to that?

I wish my kids could go to college anywhere in the country at "in state" tuition rates.

[FORD]

Hell, I'd like to work tax free myself. Why should I be forced to support a fascist regime?

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian


I wish my kids could go to college anywhere in the country at "in state" tuition rates.

In some states, they probably could, as long as they have been residents for 6 months.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
In some states, they probably could, as long as they have been residents for 6 months.

Some states, like Virginia, require one year of permanent domicile.

Anyway, you get my point.

They are not citizens at all, getting reduced rates, and even financial aid to go to school.

Not that I mind our government from helping kids go to school, it's just that I think Tyrone and Willis in the projects and Jethro in Bumfuck, Alabama deserve that money first.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

The unfortunate fact is that Dean, the media and The President will not tell you that children of these 1st generation Illegal's do not carry the same work ethic as their parents. The majority of these kids do not want to go to school or work with the same intensity as their parents. They would rather join gangs and cause trouble than learn English and educate themselves.

[FORD]

I can think of some people who obviously don't care about educating themselves. Don't have to look too far either......

[ULTRAMAN VH]

I can think of quite a few myself, but this thread is not about them.

[Big Train]

Wow, look at all these misconceptions and exaggerations. Where to start?

#1. Only day laborers don't pay taxes, because, well they are only working for a few days? How much is that contractor saving? Let's add it up:

Disability
FICA
Fed and state income tax
Ins Premiums

Sounds like THAT guy is winning the bargain. And the local contractor who picks them up at Home Depot ain't no large corporation.

#2. Most plant jobs require a social (faked or not) and a federal Tax ID (faked or not). The fucking money is still going to the government, although these numbers are faked and probably aren't reported in jobs data, census etc...thereby painting a rosier picture by the GAO about the GDP. Ghost Income for the black Ops programs Ford likes to rant about..ha ha...

If you wanted to be intelligent about it, you'd say, "but they don't pay state or other taxes or contribute to social security". I'd say correct. So FUCKING ID Them, make them legit and get the rest of the income. Of course, you can't do that (say business privately), then they would demand fair wages. Blue Collar Whitey could Unionize them then. Can't have that.

Just tell me your down with exploitation and then we can leave them be.

#3. I live in the heart of it. If they ALL wanted to be in gangs, they would be. Truth is the majority don't and a huge number of the gang members (MS-13 for ex.) are first generation. Most are trying to improve their lives. Selling oranges instead of begging for your dollars.

4. Brian, if you really want to get into "how much we shell out for these people", you need to do a cost-benefit analysis across the entire economic spectrum (how much savings and productivity gains they create vs. how much they cost) before anyone can say who owes who. Has yet to be done, because that takes actual work and critical thinking.

[FORD]

The Hell it isn't. You make blanket racist statements and then in the very next sentence, talk about the need to educate oneself. Where the Hell is your "education" coming from,?

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
these illegal bastards from grades K-12.

a little harsh, no? the illegal bastards might be the parents who broke the law and snuck in here. (or the federal government, which for years has been ignoring the issue) but some 8 year old kid really doesn't have a choice.

[FORD]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
a little harsh, no? the illegal bastards might be the parents who broke the law and snuck in here. (or the federal government, which for years has been ignoring the issue) but some 8 year old kid really doesn't have a choice.

Not to mention that some of the kids were born here, which means they aren't "illegal bastards" to begin with.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

I find it humorous that when someone stands up and addresses some major issues on the topic of illegal aliens, Ford automatically labels them racists. I have stated very clearly in previous posts that I have no problem with legal immigration. Become a legal citizen and pay into the system like I and other Americans including legal hispanic immigrants do everyday.

[Big Train]

Sweeping generalizations and personal preferences do not constitute debating the core issues.

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by FORD
Hell, I'd like to work tax free myself. Why should I be forced to support a fascist regime?

Become a business owner and the Gov't gives you all the write off's to allow you to live tax free.

[FORD]

Originally posted by 4moreyears
Become a business owner and the Gov't gives you all the write off's to allow you to live tax free.

And that's EXACTLY how the BCE has destroyed this country (aside from illegal wars and the Islamic Easter Bunny) When some quadruple chinned thief from EXXON doesn't pay taxes, and I do, something is very very wrong.

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by FORD
And that's EXACTLY how the BCE has destroyed this country (aside from illegal wars and the Islamic Easter Bunny) When some quadruple chinned thief from EXXON doesn't pay taxes, and I do, something is very very wrong.

Exxon took a risk and invested money to start a business. Now that guy from Exxon employes thousands of people that earn a living to take care of their families. To incentiveize him and people like him (like the person who pays your lazy ass) I think they are entitled to the tax breaks. It is a perk or a reward to start a company so a dumb fuck like yourself who is not smart enough to start a company can have a job. BTW, that is called capitalism.

[DLR'sCock]

As long as big and small companies illegally hire illegals at a much lower wage than what they would pay a US worker, this will never end.


At the same point, large and small companies do the same on the upper end and lie and say they can't hire anyoen to do a job and hire the H1-B visa guy to do the work at a lower wage than a US worker.

Gotta love it.


The thing is, that anyone who lives here is Lucky and priveldged enough to be born here where they have the oppurtunity to do well. Examples being starting a business, or getting that education or job. The place where people lose site is greed, and people don't think they have to give back into the system that gave them the oppurtunity to get ahead and continue to flourish. One should really be very very grateful that they could do so here. Just like life you are LUCKY enough to be born healthy and with and intelligence that helps you through this world. People lose site though....again and again....

Ah well, such is human nature....

enough is never enough, and false desire usually dominates the one who cannot see.....

[Terry]

Have a lot of thoughts on this, perhaps too many to say anything that will hit the core issues - just seems to me that our border should've been militarized a LONG time ago (talking 20 or so years before 9/11).

If anyone wants to legally come into this country to work, pay taxes and build a better life for themselves and their families, cool. Not so sure about bending over to recognize the rights of people who made their first act one of knowingly breaking the law, though.

Doubt any meaningful legislation is going to come out of this whole thing, anyway. The estimated 11 million are probably here to stay. Way it goes.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Still Dodging Immigration's Truths

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, May 17, 2006; Page A23

President Bush's immigration speech mostly missed the true nature of the problem. We face two interconnected population issues. One is aging; the other is immigration. We aren't dealing sensibly with either, and as a result we face a future of unnecessarily heightened political and economic conflict. On the one side will be older baby boomers demanding all their federal retirement benefits. On the other will be an expanding population of younger and poorer Hispanics -- immigrants, their children and grandchildren -- increasingly resentful of their rising taxes that subsidize often-wealthier and unrelated baby boomers.

Does this look like a harmonious future?


But you couldn't glean the danger from Bush's speech Monday night. Nor will you hear of it from most Democrats and (to be fair) the mainstream media. There is much muddle to our immigration debate. The central problem is not illegal immigration. It is undesirably high levels of poor and low-skilled immigrants, whether legal or illegal, most of whom are Hispanic. Immigrants are not all the same. An engineer making $75,000 annually contributes more to the American economy and society than a $20,000 laborer. On average, the engineer will assimilate more easily.

Testifying recently before Congress, University of Illinois economist Barry Chiswick -- a respected immigration scholar -- said this of low-skilled immigrants:

"Their presence in the labor market increases competition for low-skilled jobs, reducing the earnings of low-skilled native-born workers. . . . Because of their low earnings, low-skilled immigrants also tend to pay less in taxes than they receive in public benefits, such as income transfers (e.g., the earned income tax credit, food stamps), public schooling for their children, and publicly provided medical services. Thus while the presence of low-skilled immigrant workers may raise the profits of their employers, they tend to have a negative effect on the well-being of the low-skilled native-born population, and on the native economy as a whole."

Hardly anyone is discussing these issues candidly. It is politically inexpedient to do so. We can be a lawful society and a welcoming society simultaneously, to use the president's phrase, but we cannot be a welcoming society for limitless numbers of Latin America's poor without seriously compromising our own future -- and, indeed, the future of many of the Latinos already here. Yet, that is precisely what the president and many senators (Democratic and Republican) support by endorsing large "guest worker" programs and an expansion of today's system of legal visas. In practice these proposals would result in substantial increases of low-skilled immigrants.

How fast can they assimilate? We cannot know, but we can consult history. It is sobering. In 1972 Hispanics were 5 percent of the U.S. population and their median household income was 74 percent of that of non-Hispanic white households. In 2004 Hispanics were 14 percent of the population, and their median household income was 70 percent of the level of non-Hispanic whites. These numbers suggest that rapid immigration of low-skilled workers and rapid assimilation are at odds. Some immigrant families make huge advances, but many don't and newcomers represent a constant drag.

The difficulties are obvious. Competition among them depresses wages. Social services are stretched thin. In 2000 children of immigrants already represented a quarter of all low-income students in U.S. schools, an Urban Institute study reports. The figure is probably higher today. The study also reports that immigrant children are rapidly spreading beyond the six states where they had traditionally concentrated (California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, New York and New Jersey). This may explain why immigration has suddenly become such an explosive issue. A reader e-mails: "There are children in my son's school who aren't able to speak a single word of English, and it is causing such frustration amongst the staff and other children . . . I am afraid for my son's future."

There are striking parallels between how we've treated immigration and aging. In both cases, the facts are hiding in plain view. But we've chosen to ignore them because candor seems insensitive and politically awkward. Who wants to offend the elderly or Latinos? The result is to make our choices worse by postponing them. A sensible society would long ago have begun adapting to longer life expectancies, better health and greater wealth by making careful cuts in Social Security and Medicare. We've done little.

Unfortunately, the two problems intersect. Just coincidentally, the Census Bureau projects both the 65-and-over population and the Hispanic population to be about a fifth of the total by 2030 (the elderly population is now about 12 percent). The tax increases that will be required to pay for existing federal commitments to the elderly are on the order of 30 to 40 percent. People who don't think there will be conflicts between older beneficiaries and younger taxpayers -- Hispanic or not -- are deluding themselves. People who imagine there won't be more conflicts between growing numbers of poor Latinos and poor African Americans for jobs and political power are also deluding themselves.

As the president says, we need a "comprehensive" immigration policy. He's right on some elements: controlling the border; providing reliable identification cards for legal immigrants; penalizing employers that hire illegal immigrants; providing some legal status for today's illegal immigrants. But he's wrong in wanting to expand the number of low-skilled immigrants based on the fiction of U.S. labor "shortages." In his testimony, economist Chiswick rightly argued that we should do the opposite -- give preferences to skilled immigrants. We should be smart about the future; right now, we're not.



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[ELVIS]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Thanks for the soundbite Dr. "Demento Screamo" Dean!

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[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
And that's EXACTLY how the BCE has destroyed this country (aside from illegal wars and the Islamic Easter Bunny) When some quadruple chinned thief from EXXON doesn't pay taxes, and I do, something is very very wrong.

Who is this Exxon person who doesn't pay taxes?

[diamondD]

That was a new one to me too. The bonus was outrageous in these times, but I never read anything about him not having to pay taxes.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ULTRAMAN VH
Still Dodging Immigration's Truths

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, May 17, 2006; Page A23

President Bush's immigration speech mostly missed the true nature of the problem. We face two interconnected population issues. One is aging; the other is immigration. We aren't dealing sensibly with either, and as a result we face a future of unnecessarily heightened political and economic conflict. On the one side will be older baby boomers demanding all their federal retirement benefits. On the other will be an expanding population of younger and poorer Hispanics -- immigrants, their children and grandchildren -- increasingly resentful of their rising taxes that subsidize often-wealthier and unrelated baby boomers.

Does this look like a harmonious future?

.

Ultraman, big points for attempting to add to the discussion.

The author is very selective in his world view and doom and gloom. For the facts that he presented, all very legit and not much of that is debateable, there is many, many aspects he is either willfully ignoring or painfully undereducated about.

First off, these workers are not making what an American worker does or living under the same system. On the basis of that alone, for starters, his stats are skewed. If these workers were to become legal, pay the correct taxes and be earning the correct wages, the social services need would be greatly offset.

Secondly, the boomers NEED to have someone paying into the system, if not a large group of people. Social security as it stands is fucked anyway, as we have all agreed in the past. If nobody is paying into the system, it can only be more fucked.

#3, Yes, the English is an issue. Education reform of some sort needs to take place. Again if these people were allowed (or forced, whatever makes you sleep better) to pay into the system, the funding is there.

#4. This is IMMIGRATION reform, not Mexico Immigration reform. These are global rules applying to global people. While yes, this applies primarly to latinos, asians, indians, Germans, Russians will all play by these rules and perhaps with a more organized system, the brain drain (apparently he feels Mexicans aren't capable of contributing in an intellectual capacity) would be reduced.

#5. All major political parties (Dems especially are being pussies about Mexico's feelings-ex. Dem senator today who was concerned about the appearance of the fence in the countries relations) are completely failing at any attempt to leverage the US onto Mexico for reform in their country. If you don't want them to come, tell you government to pressure Mexico to make it better for them THERE. No Repubs, No Dems, No Indies are talking about that. Mighty Howard Dean is a pussy about it. GW is a pussy about it. McCain, Uncle Teddy, right on down the line. Holding a mirror up to Mexico intently and putting real diplomatic pressure on them is a serious step. It;s the only one that will make the "triple" layer fence useful.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by ELVIS
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Thanks Big E!

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Big Train all of your points are well taken and thanks for an educated response without the use of name calling or curse words. I still feel this is a huge problem and this country at this time cannot take on another country's millions of unskilled, uneducated citizens. You don't see Mexico's doctors, lawyers, engineers and politicians running across the border. I agree 100% that our politicians are to blame for this mess and they are completely out of touch with American citizens. Call me a pessimist, [I prefer REALIST] but I truly believe that in 20 years the American landscape will have changed and not for the better.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by diamondD
That was a new one to me too. The bonus was outrageous in these times, but I never read anything about him not having to pay taxes.

I am going to assume that FORD's silence means that he overstated the point.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I am going to assume that FORD's silence means that he overstated the point.

What I should have said was that the fascist corporation pays little or no taxes. However, due to the fact that tax loopholes are designed to benefit the ultra rich, this lying fascist thief probably pays very little or no taxes himself either.

Let's say that Joe Sixpack gets lucky and hits the $200 million Powerball jackpot. Reality is he'll probably get about $80 million out of that money. Nothing to sneeze at, of course. But a significant cut out for taxes.

How much did Mr 4 chins Exxon executive lose from his $400 million Platinum Parachute? You can bet it wasn't anwhere near 60% of it. Hell, I'd be surprised if it were 6%.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Big Train
Sweeping generalizations and personal preferences do not constitute debating the core issues.

Now YOU sound like a liberal...

[diamondD]

Originally posted by FORD
What I should have said was that the fascist corporation pays little or no taxes. However, due to the fact that tax loopholes are designed to benefit the ultra rich, this lying fascist thief probably pays very little or no taxes himself either.

Let's say that Joe Sixpack gets lucky and hits the $200 million Powerball jackpot. Reality is he'll probably get about $80 million out of that money. Nothing to sneeze at, of course. But a significant cut out for taxes.

How much did Mr 4 chins Exxon executive lose from his $400 million Platinum Parachute? You can bet it wasn't anwhere near 60% of it. Hell, I'd be surprised if it were 6%.

In a nutshell, you're assuming everything and stating it as fact.

Do you really need to be throwing stones about people being overweight? Why do you keep bringing up his extra chins? Are you saying it's ok to be a regular joe and be fat but not if you're rich?

[diamondD]

And, for the record, I haven't bought gas from Exxon since I read that. Rarely did if I could avoid it since the Valdez. If everyone would boycott them, they'd have to lower their prices and the other would have to follow I would think.

I'm not cutting back on stuff to give someone a retirement BONUS on top of what he had. But that's a different thread.

[FORD]

Originally posted by diamondD
And, for the record, I haven't bought gas from Exxon since I read that. Rarely did if I could avoid it since the Valdez. If everyone would boycott them, they'd have to lower their prices and the other would have to follow I would think.

I'm not cutting back on stuff to give someone a retirement BONUS on top of what he had. But that's a different thread.

You're exactly right about the boycott. Only problem is that most people I know have already been boycotting Exxon since the Valdez tragedy, so it would probably be a more effective boycott if everyone chose to skip another large company, such as Chevron/Texaco or UNOCAL, who were involved in the Taliban pipeline deal.

I try to buy from Citgo whenever possible myself, but that's entirely another thread.

If everyone boycotted TWO of the major oil companies, this price gouging would end really soon. If congress actually investigated their crimes, it could end sooner than that.

[DrMaddVibe]

I thought it was a stretch for him to even mention that he works!