Former Rolling Stone Mick Taylor flat broke...

[Kristy]

Again, if this was a perfect world, Jimi. Most likely when Jagger bought the rights to all of The Stones back catalog he had them legally revised in that all of the royalties being made from either radio play or album/concert sales went directly back into his and Keith's pocket no matter who the song's (original) collaborator's were. Yes, you can legally do that without moral precedent. I'm not saying I'm for it but that's the way the system works.

Maybe if Taylor wasn't so fucked-up and asleep at the switch he could have challenged Jagger at the time but once the i's are dotted and the t's crossed there is little Taylor can do now. After all, Taylor could have pulled the same shit on Mick and Keith if he could afford to do so at the time. Now, Taylor might get a crumb or two thrown in his direction but Jagger and/or Richards have no legal responsibility to compensate him. It's pretty much the same deal Michael Jackson had owing the rights to the Beetle's back catalog - he didn't have any legal ties to paying McCartney and therefore, never did.

[Kristy]

But to reverse his royalies is fucking criminal.

Not if you revise the contract freeing you from all fiduciary responsibility that Jagger, Richards and Taylor might have had between each other. The law is clever more than ever these days.

[yah]

I really hope that Mick Taylor hires a lawyer and that they get some money from the Stones.
He does deserve the royalties from the albums he played on and he should get back payments for the yrs he missed,(1982 and on...)
They are selfish idiots by cutting him out that way....

[Igosplut]

True, but to outright shut out a former member who cuntributed substantially who not only got fucked out of song writing credits. But to cuntractually assfuck him out of rightly deserved perfoming royalties of recorded works is fucking low.
Mick Jagger (elitist cunt)is the biggest fucking hypocrite in British rock. He's about as much a R&R rebel as Perry Como.
Christ , dig into those pockets and help a brother out ,ffs....

Was it right morally? Fuckin A no. For the money these guys have made over the years, even a couple of mill from the band (collectively) wouldn't have been a big deal. And they should have done it without the prompting, and done it quietly without fan fair.....

Now for reality. The reading I've done on the stones and Micks realization of the worth of the songwriting credits made him fanatical about giving anything to anybody. Hence Mick Taylor being on the outside looking in. And do you think for a minute an egotistical fuck like Mick Jagger was EVER going to give credit to somebody else for the biggest hits they ever had? Hell, he wouldn't give credit for the smallest shit. This was his worry about cutting Brian Jones loose, never mind Taylor.

Taylor should sue, chances are they'd settle out of court for an amount that would take care of his, but be far less that what he should receive (and what is due)....

[Igosplut]

I saw a youtube interview with Lennon the other day where he said the same thing. He said the Beatles had to be bastards to do what they did. That's what their fans didn't know. I wish I remembered which one so I could post it but it was a great interview. He also mentioned the book Love Me Do being the only one that got it right.

I'm thinking that this was written (or released) a few years ago. I think it was posted on DDLR.

The Beatles lost MILLIONS (read:100 million in 60s dollars) on their merchandising licensing alone (Epstein literally gave it away) so they had a hard and fast education in business.

[Kristy]

And do you think for a minute an egotistical fuck like Mick Jagger was EVER going to give credit to somebody else for the biggest hits they ever had? Hell, he wouldn't give credit for the smallest shit. This was his worry about cutting Brian Jones loose, never mind Taylor.

AND...Ron Wood. I believe Wood was credited with some songwriting partnership on Voodoo Lounge and was superfluously mentioned as "inspiration" on the Black & Blue album (only because he wasn't regarded as an official member of the band at the time) but he too has been vocal every now and then for not getting full due only to recant a little and say, "well, that's how it is when you're in this band, you learn to play without proper mention."

[Terry]

The Stones stuff I like best is the stuff Taylor was involved with.

With the Brian Jones era, most of that material I still listen to is from Between The Buttons through to Beggar's Banquet. Jones was great at adding exotic touches to the tunes...he really wasn't involved much with Let It Bleed from what I've read (the story is that Ry Cooder did quite a bit of uncredited work on Let It Bleed, as well as on a couple of tunes on Sticky Fingers). I can't say I liked much of what Ron Wood brought to the group. Some Girls was easily the best thing he ever participated in. Emotional Rescue was okay. Tattoo You had old outtakes from the Taylor era, complete with Taylor leads...and he wasn't credited with any of that when the album was released, either. Undercover was okay. The output after that has been less than inspired.

Not in the least bit surprising that Taylor has been shafted. I mean, from many accounts, Ronnie Wood wasn't even made a full partner in the band until the 1990s (after Bill Wyman left). Kristy is right in the sense that Taylor should have engaged an attorney to look after his interests the moment he left the band. Particularly with the catalog having bounced to several different record companies since then. Record contracts, much like home mortgages or many other financial/business undertakings, can be byzantine to the point of lunacy. The only people assured of being paid at the end of the day are the record companies; the artists need to engage the services of lawyers and accountants to make sure royalties are being written into contracts, as well as checking amounts of record units pressed and sold. I mean, ideally Taylor should still be getting his share of the profits of those Stones records which he appeared on. However, it sounds like when he initially quit the band he was fucked up on drugs, stuck his head in the sand and assumed the record companies and his former bandmates would do right by him. He's not the first musician to have that attitude, and not the first musician to get screwed over as a result, either.

[Igosplut]

AND...Ron Wood. I believe Wood was credited with some songwriting partnership on Voodoo Lounge and was superfluously mentioned as "inspiration" on the Black & Blue album (only because he wasn't regarded as an official member of the band at the time) but he too has been vocal every now and then for not getting full due only to recant a little and say, "well, that's how it is when you're in this band, you learn to play without proper mention."

No fucking shit, huh? They only made him a "Full Partner" in 1990 (what ever that Entails in the stones world..) Why, if he was helping to write/play, and they considered him permanent member would they wait until then?????

All just greed.....

[Igosplut]

The Stones stuff I like best is the stuff Taylor was involved with.

With the Brian Jones era, most of that material I still listen to is from Between The Buttons through to Beggar's Banquet. Jones was great at adding exotic touches to the tunes...he really wasn't involved much with Let It Bleed from what I've read (the story is that Ry Cooder did quite a bit of uncredited work on Let It Bleed, as well as on a couple of tunes on Sticky Fingers)

Jagger was on full boil to A: get Jones out of the picture/band ( his emotional/drug problems were over the top at that point) and B: to make sure that none of the money slipped away. Perhaps what was done to Jones was worse than Taylor (they did give up about 200K in 1969 dollars) only because he was the founding member of the group.

Jagger learned early on the value of the band.

[Kristy]

The Stones stuff I like best is the stuff Taylor was involved with.

With the Brian Jones era, most of that material I still listen to is from Between The Buttons through to Beggar's Banquet. Jones was great at adding exotic touches to the tunes...he really wasn't involved much with Let It Bleed from what I've read (the story is that Ry Cooder did quite a bit of uncredited work on Let It Bleed, as well as on a couple of tunes on Sticky Fingers). I can't say I liked much of what Ron Wood brought to the group. Some Girls was easily the best thing he ever participated in. Emotional Rescue was okay. Tattoo You had old outtakes from the Taylor era, complete with Taylor leads...and he wasn't credited with any of that when the album was released, either. Undercover was okay. The output after that has been less than inspired.

Cooder also played bit parts on what was to be the Metamorphosis sessions ("Memo From Turner') as well as some Jagger solo work for Ned Kelly. The story of Cooder's involvement with the Stones was that he was to be an interim guitarist (based on his studio session skills) until Jagger could find a replacement for Jones fucking up all the time because The Stones were still under recoding contract with London/Atco. Richards seemed to have detested him claiming that Cooder was too sterile for the Stones (my guess is that Cooder wasn't a limey) but Jagger seemed to have taken a fondness to him, calling Cooder to come from L.A. to Muscle Shoals to play on Sticky Fingers for what was to be two tracks, Cooder only sufficed on one. (You see, I'm in love with Ry Cooder and always have been - saw him back on his Chavez Tour and, as usual, he was amazing.)

As for Wood's input I never thought of him as an adequate guitar player for The Stones much less a replacement for Taylor's astonishing fretwork (did you know that it was Taylor playing bass on 'Fingerprint File'?) but Wood seemed to fit the archetype of the Stones that Taylor could never achieve. Wood did write some creative riffs when he was back with The Faces and it does make you wonder just how much of his work is uncredited from Some Girls on.

[chefcraig]

Cooder also played bit parts on what was to be the Metamorphosis sessions ("Memo From Turner') as well as some Jagger solo work for Ned Kelly. The story of Cooder's involvement with the Stones was that he was to be an interim guitarist (based on his studio session skills) until Jagger could find a replacement for Jones fucking up all the time because The Stones were still under recoding contract with London/Atco. Richards seemed to have detested him claiming that Cooder was too sterile for the Stones (my guess is that Cooder wasn't a limey) but Jagger seemed to have taken a fondness to him, calling Cooder to come from L.A. to Muscle Shoals to play on Sticky Fingers for what was to be two tracks, Cooder only sufficed on one. (You see, I'm in love with Ry Cooder and always have been - saw him back on his Chavez Tour and, as usual, he was amazing.)

Don't forget this overlooked beauty.

As for Wood's input I never thought of him as an adequate guitar player for The Stones much less a replacement for Taylor's astonishing fretwork (did you know that it was Taylor playing bass on 'Fingerprint File'?) but Wood seemed to fit the archetype of the Stones that Taylor could never achieve. Wood did write some creative riffs when he was back with The Faces and it does make you wonder just how much of his work is uncredited from Some Girls on.

Wyman is on record in several interviews and in his various books about the Stones that many tracks cut by the band had other people playing his bass parts. He claims that Jagger and Richards could be quite sneaky and underhanded "in the ways they'd get recording done", such as not inviting him to sessions, ect. Wyman was extremely candid about this, along with being (rightfully) indignant and quite pissed about the practice. In fact, if you've ever seen Jean-Luc Godard's film One Plus One (which chronicles the Stones recording "Sympathy For The Devil"), you'll see Richards take over from Wyman on bass, as Wyman is reduced to shaking maracas.

[Hellraiser!!]

How fucked up is that....

That's why you have to think twice before stick the needle in your vein...

[standin]

Again, if this was a perfect world, Jimi. Most likely when Jagger bought the rights to all of The Stones back catalog he had them legally revised in that all of the royalties being made from either radio play or album/concert sales went directly back into his and Keith's pocket no matter who the song's (original) collaborator's were. Yes, you can legally do that without moral precedent. I'm not saying I'm for it but that's the way the system works.

Maybe if Taylor wasn't so fucked-up and asleep at the switch he could have challenged Jagger at the time but once the i's are dotted and the t's crossed there is little Taylor can do now. After all, Taylor could have pulled the same shit on Mick and Keith if he could afford to do so at the time. Now, Taylor might get a crumb or two thrown in his direction but Jagger and/or Richards have no legal responsibility to compensate him. It's pretty much the same deal Michael Jackson had owing the rights to the Beetle's back catalog - he didn't have any legal ties to paying McCartney and therefore, never did.

Mick and Michael as 2 peas in a pod.
That is pretty harsh, Kristy.

[Igosplut]

It's pretty much the same deal Michael Jackson had owing the rights to the Beetle's back catalog - he didn't have any legal ties to paying McCartney and therefore, never did.

No, not at all. There was basically a three-way split of the Northern Songs catalog ownership. John and Paul retained 20% each. Brian Epstein had 10% and Dick James (Beatles music publisher) got 50%. The reasoning behind Epstein and James receiving those amounts (for NOTHING) was that it was in lieu of management (25%) and Publishing fees respectively.

After Brian's death his brother Clive (who inherited Brian's 10%) Sold the interest (called NEMS) to pay the substantial death taxes the family didn't have to a company named Triumph. At the same time Dick James believing that the Lennon/McCartney partnership was (correctly) doomed, and figuring Allen Kline would mismanage the Beatles into the ground he was determined to sell out.

Lew Grade bought James 50% and obtained enough stock (Northern Songs had gone public a few years before) to have controlling interest of the catalog. This is essentially the controlling interest that Michael Jackson bought in the 80s. The main sticking point (at the time) was Jackson actively working with McCartney on songs during the time of the purchase and not telling him up front (or conceding the sale to him/Yoko)

So, while John/Paul lost the controlling interest/ownership in Northern Songs (that they never owned anyway) they still retained more than 40% (Paul had been buying shares behind the others backs from the time it went public). The money splits were different than the % owned due to contracts (which have since long run out) But the earning power of the 159 song catalog has been strong throughout the years from the endless sales/repackaging of Beatles music.

Bottom line while the Beatles salad days were over, the earning power of the catalog 40%+ was still very substantial throughout the years. And Paul/John got a cut of every use of their music, right down to the commercials Jackson sold the music to (for heavy money). John/Yoko were the first to voice their displeasure of the use of the licensing, but the paydays still were substantial (no complaints there) And Yoko/Paul had substantial earnings after the fact on their own insuring they would hardly have money problems.

But Mick Taylor only had one shot at the brass ring, got some meager royalty's that were ripped out from underneath him by people that could afforded much more especially giving the party's perspective positions. Much different thing in my eyes....

[Panamark]

Stingy bastards should set him up with something.
How does he not get royalties form that era, unless
he signed it away ?