Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion

[Combat Ready]

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

UPDATED:

President Obama's climate plan could cost industry close to $2 trillion, nearly three times the White House's initial estimate of the so-called "cap-and-trade" legislation, according to Senate staffers who were briefed by the White House.

A top economic aide to Mr. Obama told a group of Senate staffers last month that the president's climate-change plan would surely raise more than the $646 billion over eight years the White House had estimated publicly, according to multiple a number of staffers who attended the briefing Feb. 26.

"We all looked at each other like, 'Wow, that's a big number,'" said a top Republican staffer who attended the meeting along with between 50 and 60 other Democratic and Republican congressional aides.

The plan seeks to reduce pollution by setting a limit on carbon emissions and allowing businesses and groups to buy allowances, although exact details have not been released.

At the meeting, Jason Furman, a top Obama staffer, estimated that the president's cap-and-trade program could cost up to three times as much as the administration's early estimate of $646 billion over eight years. A study of an earlier cap-and-trade bill co-sponsored by Mr. Obama when he was a senator estimated the cost could top $366 billion a year by 2015.

A White House official did not confirm the large estimate, saying only that Obama aides previously had noted that the $646 billion estimate was "conservative."

"Any revenues in excess of the estimate would be rebated to vulnerable consumers, communities and businesses," the official said.

The Obama administration has proposed using the majority of the money generated from a cap-and-trade plan to pay for its middle-class tax cuts, while using about $120 billion to invest in renewable-energy projects.

Mr. Obama and congressional Democratic leaders have made passing a climate-change bill a top priority. But Republican leaders and moderate to conservative Democrats have cautioned against levying increased fees on businesses while the economy is still faltering.

House Republican leaders blasted the costs in the new estimate.

"The last thing we need is a massive tax increase in a recession, but reportedly that's what the White House is offering: up to $1.9 trillion in tax hikes on every single American who drives a car, turns on a light switch or buys a product made in the United States," said Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Minority Leader John A. Boehner. "And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."

Washington Times - Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/18/obama-climate-plan-could-cost-2-trillion/)

[LoungeMachine]

Isn't having to spend tax money to clean up the air, water, and soil after polluters just another giant HIDDEN tax?

What is wrong with making the industries who create these messes, pay to clean them up? All part of doing business.

Can't afford to clean the mess?, then you shouldnt be allowed to profit from it.

:gulp:

[Combat Ready]

Isn't having to spend tax money to clean up the air, water, and soil after polluters just another giant HIDDEN tax?

What is wrong with making the industries who create these messes, pay to clean them up? All part of doing business.

Can't afford to clean the mess?, then you shouldnt be allowed to profit from it.

:gulp:

Agree with your take in theory. Somehow, I think the little guy will be paying the bulk in the form of taxes. Another 2 trillion in tax is pretty brutal.

[LoungeMachine]

Agree with your take in theory. Somehow, I think the little guy will be paying the bulk in the form of taxes. Another 2 trillion in tax is pretty brutal.

Define "the little guy"

I'm not buying it.

Most polluters are large corporations, not the Ace Hardware store on Main St.

:gulp:

[Combat Ready]

Define "the little guy"

I'm not buying it.

:gulp:

Normal, everyday people like you and I. (maybe that was a bad example).

I think the cost of doing business would be passed along in the form of higher prices.

[Nitro Express]

Isn't having to spend tax money to clean up the air, water, and soil after polluters just another giant HIDDEN tax?

What is wrong with making the industries who create these messes, pay to clean them up? All part of doing business.

Can't afford to clean the mess?, then you shouldnt be allowed to profit from it.

:gulp:

People are losing their jobs left and right and all this idiot does is raise taxes, rewards the people who caused the problems, and grows the government even more. Yes there is global warming because it's cyclical. It more because of more sun activity because duh, Mars and Saturn are warmer as well.

[Nitro Express]

Maybe Obama's plan to avoid pollution is to break everybody so we can afford gasoline or fuel to heat our homes. People living in third world conditions pollute less but is he going to tax our campfires with a carbon tax?

[LoungeMachine]

Normal, everyday people like you and I. (maybe that was a bad example).

I think the cost of doing business would be passed along in the form of higher prices.

Dont WE already pay for this cleanup?

The market determines the price of goods and services, not the cost of doing business.

BUT If buying a gallon of weed killer costs 50 cents more, because the company mixing the chemicals has to make sure their surroundings are protected, so what?

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

People are losing their jobs left and right and all this idiot does is raise taxes, .

Really?

ALL he does is RAISE taxes?

Want to re-phrase that?

:gulp:

[WACF]

Dont WE already pay for this cleanup?

The market determines the price of goods and services, not the cost of doing business.

BUT If buying a gallon of weed killer costs 50 cents more, because the company mixing the chemicals has to make sure their surroundings are protected, so what?

:gulp:

You are exactly right.

The problem is though...companies go overseas to avoid the rules.

Big t-shirt companies would rather do business in Bangladesh because the dye is unhealthy. They would rather not deal with the whiney labourers here that worry about health issues and a living wage.

I tried Ethical shopping....it's tough...so little is made in North America now...

Things have to change.

[LoungeMachine]

You are exactly right.

The problem is though...companies go overseas to avoid the rules.

.

Which is why we need stiff tariffs here.

If a t-shirt costs $2 to make in the US, but can be imported for $1, then a $1 tariff needs to be applied to take away that incentive.

We're already PAYING higher hidden prices/taxes.

The interest on the money we're borrowing from China is a [hidden] tax on the goods we import.

:gulp:

[Combat Ready]

Dont WE already pay for this cleanup?


:gulp:

Yes.

The cap and trade scheme will almost certainly result in even MORE being paid by us.

There are folks that have faith in the feds to administer such a program. I salute you and others for having that faith. I think the intentions are admirable.

I don't share that faith...That's all.

[WACF]

Yes.

The cap and trade scheme will almost certainly result in even MORE being paid by us.

There are folks that have faith in the feds to administer such a program. I salute you and others for having that faith. I think the intentions are admirable.

I don't share that faith...That's all.


Cap and trade...a bloody joke IMO.

The bigger you are...and the more money you have...you can continue to pollute.

When the polluter is an energy supplier....the cost will be passed on to the consumer.

I despise these twats that fly around preaching about pollution...then claiming they offset their carbon footprint with some cash.

Fuck them....I did not realize that cash to plant a tree or buy a credit made the jet engine more efficient.


The answer is research into Carbon capture and clean coal technolgoy.

This is part of what we are doing here...

SaskPower's CLEAN COAL™ Project (http://www.saskpower.com/cleancoal/frequently_asked_questions.html)


What makes this project different from other "clean coal" initiatives?
The SaskPower Clean Coal™ Project will extend the corporation's pulverized coal technology expertise with the newly developed OxyFuel™ process or post-combustion clean up technologies. The result - capture of over 90% of carbon dioxide (CO2) as well as capture and control of sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury and particulate matter leading to near zero emission status. The CO2 will be used for enhanced oil recovery or sequestered in deep saline aquifers.

[Baby's On Fire]

People are losing their jobs left and right and all this idiot does is raise taxes, rewards the people who caused the problems, and grows the government even more. Yes there is global warming because it's cyclical. It more because of more sun activity because duh, Mars and Saturn are warmer as well.


More sun activity? I'm truly speechless.................Why do fools like you refuse to realize that massive gas emissions inside the atmosphere create warmer temps? That's why it's called the greenhouse effect.

Or maybe another sun appeared out of nowhere that only you know about.

[Combat Ready]

I'm truly speechless.................


One can only hope.

[Angel]

massive gas emissions inside the atmosphere create warmer temps

The way my stomach's acting this week, we should be about 20 degrees warmer by now! :lmao:

[mwsully]

Which is why we need stiff tariffs here.

If a t-shirt costs $2 to make in the US, but can be imported for $1, then a $1 tariff needs to be applied to take away that incentive.

We're already PAYING higher hidden prices/taxes.

The interest on the money we're borrowing from China is a [hidden] tax on the goods we import.

:gulp:

Lounge, could you please run for some kind of U.S. government office (preferably President) and begin kicking people's asses there? You make so much sense. I truly wish more people had your insight. :)

[Nickdfresh]

What will the cost be when flood waters from melting arctic ice come into the Eastern and Western seaboards?

[mwsully]

I don't know much about economics, politics. I'm pretty new to it all, but I do keep my eyes and ears open.

The way I see it, this country cannot survive without some MAJOR changes...some not too pretty. What I fear is whether we have competent enough people to make the necessary ones.

[FORD]

What will the cost be when flood waters from melting arctic ice come into the Eastern and Western seaboards?

Hopefully Manhattan can flood when all the Wall Street Whores are at work. Or better yet, at lunch time when they're outside.

[LoungeMachine]

What will the cost be when flood waters from melting arctic ice come into the Eastern and Western seaboards?

Europe thrown into another ice age?

Is there a downside I'm missing?

:gulp:

[Nitro Express]

More sun activity? I'm truly speechless.................Why do fools like you refuse to realize that massive gas emissions inside the atmosphere create warmer temps? That's why it's called the greenhouse effect.

Or maybe another sun appeared out of nowhere that only you know about.

Dude. It's called the solar cycle and has caused climate change and polarity shifts way before the industrial revolution happened. The sun has a much larger effect on the earth than we do. I'm all for getting off of fossil fuel but the global warming hype is used to consolidate industry and raise taxes like the carbon tax. It's a dupe based on a natural cycle we have very little to do with.

Solar cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunspot_cycle)

[Nitro Express]

The planet is fine. It's going no where. The people are fucked. George Carlin.

[Nitro Express]

Europe thrown into another ice age?

Is there a downside I'm missing?

:gulp:

That's the next cycle. Some say we have already entered the global cooling phase. It has more to do with the electromagnetic field of the earth which has a huge effect on the atmosphere one the electromagnetic field increases and we get high altitude cloud layers, we will cool and the ice will come back. Possibly more than we want. It's going to be fun to see the piss ant people try and control it; especially, when solar storms take out the power grid by shorting out the transformers. Our technology can hid the shiter quick and without electricity we are not going to be telling Mother Nature much.

[Combat Ready]

Another point of view; as detailed in Pravda.

Carbon Communism

I think that the CO2-caused Global Warming theory is false and unproven junk science.

But let’s suppose for a moment that the CO2 equals Global Warming equation is real. The wealthy elitists James Hansen, Al Gore, Tony Blair, Barack Obama, and the other high-profile cheerleaders for CO2 reduction are asking the poor and middle classes to suffer the consequences of a radical shutdown of global commerce and energy production in order to ‘save the planet’ from Global Warming. They want to make serfs of the masses of working people, while a privileged elite will be permitted to continue living in high style with a much larger ‘carbon footprint’ than the un-entitled lower classes.

We should never let that happen. The only way that ‘carbon rationing’ should be allowed is by assigning the exact same carbon limit to all people everywhere. Al Gore, Barack Obama, a London cabbie, and a Kalahari Bushman should all be assigned exactly the same number of ‘carbon credits’, period. Let them trade their credits with each other, but everyone should be restricted to the same limited ‘carbon credit’ allowance. The long-term ultimate effect of this would be an economic leveling of society; essentially global Communism. Under such a system, no one would be able to accumulate an excess of personal property or wealth because they could never accumulate enough ‘carbon credits’ to do so.

When Hansen, Gore, Blair, and Obama give up their patrician incomes and lifestyles and restrict their own ‘carbon footprint’ to the level of the common labourer or office worker, I will begin to believe that they are sincere about preventing Global Warming. Their obvious unwillingness to do what they are asking the rest of us to do proves that they are not sincere. They want the common people to sacrifice their lives to prevent Global Warming, while the wealthy retain their high-carbon consuming and producing privileges.

We cannot permit a privileged elite to enjoy a ‘high-carbon’ lifestyle while the poor are restricted by law to a ‘low-carbon’ lifestyle. Any effort by any government to impose carbon rationing with preferential treatment to any class of people should be seen as sufficient reason for an all-out French-style revolution in which the majority population dispossess the elitists of their wealth, their positions of power, and their privilege. In a world that is constantly threatened by Global Warming, we cannot allow a greedy few to consume or produce in excess of the average ‘carbon footprint’ of the world’s population as a whole.

Barack Obama keeps the temperature at 78 degrees Fahrenheit in the Oval Office while telling the rest of us to turn our thermostats down. James Hansen has received grants amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars to promote the Global Warming theory. Al Gore has invested heavily in the ‘carbon trading’ brokerage business. All of these men jet around the world, live in oversized houses, and ride in limousines. If the common people are to be required by law to reduce our ‘carbon footprint’, we need to demand that our leaders and the wealthy elite be restricted to exactly the same carbon allowance as everyone else. We are not all together in the fight against Global Warming unless everyone is required to make the same sacrifices by sharing an equal ‘carbon footprint’ and an equal ‘carbon ration’, which should be assigned equally to every living person in the entire world. We need to hold the elitists’ feet to the fire and require them to make exactly the same sacrifices as the rest of humanity.

Individual carbon limits and carbon rationing? Bring them on. Viva la Revolucion!



Gregory Fegel

Carbon Communism - Pravda.Ru (http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/107272-0/)