AP publishes photo of Marine fatally wounded in battle

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I have to admit, I'm on the fence on this one...

-------------------------------------------------------

Associated Press says photo of Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard shows realities of war - St. Petersburg Times (http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/article1033549.ece)

Associated Press says photo of Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard shows realities of war

Associated Press
Posted: Sep 04, 2009 12:( AM

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k55/ferr3816/usmc.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------In this photo taken Friday, Aug. 14, Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard is tended to by fellow U.S. Marines after being hit by a rocket propelled grenade during a firefight against the Taliban in the village of Dahaneh in the Helmand province of Afghanistan. Bernard was transported by helicopter to Camp Leatherneck where he later died of his wounds.
[Julie Jacobson | Associated Press]


NEW YORK — The Associated Press is distributing a photo of a Marine fatally wounded in battle, choosing after a period of reflection to make public an image that conveys the grimness of war and the sacrifice of young men and women fighting it.

Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard, 21, of New Portland, Maine, was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade in a Taliban ambush Aug. 14 in Helmand province of southern Afghanistan.

The image shows fellow Marines helping Bernard after he suffered severe leg injuries. He was evacuated to a field hospital where he died on the operating table.

The picture was taken by Associated Press photographer Julie Jacobson, who accompanied Marines on the patrol and was in the midst of the ambush during which Bernard was wounded. She had photographed Bernard on patrol earlier, and subsequently covered the memorial service held by his fellow Marines after his death.

"AP journalists document world events every day. Afghanistan is no exception. We feel it is our journalistic duty to show the reality of the war there, however unpleasant and brutal that sometimes is," said Santiago Lyon, the director of photography for AP.

He said Bernard's death shows "his sacrifice for his country. Our story and photos report on him and his last hours respectfully and in accordance with military regulations surrounding journalists embedded with U.S. forces."

Journalists embedded with U.S. forces in Afghanistan must sign a statement accepting a series of rules which among other things are designed to protect operational security and lives of the soldiers and Marines who are hosting them.

Critics also maintain some of the rules are aimed at sanitizing the war, minimizing the sacrifice and cruelty which were graphically depicted by images from the Civil War to Vietnam where such restrictions were not in place.

The rule regarding coverage of "wounded, injured, and ill personnel" states that the "governing concerns" are "patient welfare, patient privacy and next of kin/family considerations."

"Casualties may be covered by embedded media as long as the service member's identity and unit identification is protected from disclosure until OASD-PA has officially released the name. Photography from a respectful distance or from angles at which a casualty cannot be identified is permissible; however, no recording of ramp ceremonies or remains transfers is permitted."

Images of U.S. soldiers fallen in combat have been rare in Iraq and Afghanistan, partly because it is unusual for journalists to witness them and partly because military guidelines have barred the showing of photographs until after families have been notified.

Jacobson, who was crouching under fire, took the picture from a distance with a long lens and did not interfere with Marines trying to assist Bernard.

The AP waited until after Bernard's burial in Madison, Maine, on Aug. 24 to distribute its story and the pictures. An AP reporter met with his parents, allowing them to see the images.

Bernard's father after seeing the image of his mortally wounded son said he opposed its publication, saying it was disrespectful to his son's memory. John Bernard reiterated his viewpoint in a telephone call to the AP on Wednesday.

"We understand Mr. Bernard's anguish. We believe this image is part of the history of this war. The story and photos are in themselves a respectful treatment and recognition of sacrifice," said AP senior managing editor John Daniszewski.

Jacobson, in a journal she kept, recalled Bernard's ordeal as she lay in the dirt while Marines tried to save their comrade with bullets overhead.

"The other guys kept telling him 'Bernard, you're doing fine, you're doing fine. You're gonna make it. Stay with me Bernard!'" As one Marine cradled Bernard's head, fellow Marines rushed forward with a stretcher.

Later, when she learned he had died, Jacobson thought about the pictures she had taken.

"To ignore a moment like that simply ... would have been wrong. I was recording his impending death, just as I had recorded his life moments before walking the point in the bazaar," she said. "Death is a part of life and most certainly a part of war. Isn't that why we're here? To document for now and for history the events of this war?"

Later, she showed members of his squadron all the images taken that day and the Marines flipped through them on her computer one by one.

"They did stop when they came to that moment," she said. "But none of them complained or grew angry about it. They understood that it was what it was. They understand, despite that he was their friend, it was the reality of things."

[sadaist]

Associated Press
Posted: Sep 04, 2009 12:01 AM


Can we do something about the damn clock always inserting a smiley face at the most inappropriate times?

[kwame k]

Me too VA.......part of me has that old, bring the war home to America's living room, let them see the realities of war but............I think it's disrespectful to the loved ones to have to see how this unfortunate solider met his end.

I'm on the fence here with ya.

[sadaist]

The main reason I would not have printed it is because the family requested that it not be. Other than that, how graphic do we need to be? I don't see any gory pictures of "bad guys" being printed by mainstream media outlets. And there's something about a persons last moments alive. Should it be pictured & shown to the world? It's kind of a personal and private moment for that person. If I were dying I don't think I'd want someone to take a picture of it & broadcast it out.

[sadaist]

part of me has that old, bring the war home to America's living room, let them see the realities of war

I can understand that. But on the flip side, why would they not show the splattered bodies of people from the twin towers that jumped? Bring the war home to America's living room...but also bring to their living room the reason we are there.

I just don't think we need a picture to understand what it looks like when we hear this soldiers legs were blown off.

[kwame k]

I can understand that. But on the flip side, why would they not show the splattered bodies of people from the twin towers that jumped? Bring the war home to America's living room...but also bring to their living room the reason we are there.

I just don't think we need a picture to understand what it looks like when we hear this soldiers legs were blown off.

Look up the thread that Sesh posted about the guy that jumped on 9/11. Great documentary and kinda puts a similar debate forward as here.

Don't know Sadaist.......should it be an all or nothing proposition, total journalist freedom or a society/morality led decision on what to show. This one's a tough one for me, too many angles here.

[Nickdfresh]

Can we do something about the damn clock always inserting a smiley face at the most inappropriate times?

I did...

It's an awful photograph and I'm really sorry for him and his family...

[standin]

I don't see anything shocking about it. It does not seem gory at all.
It is always difficult for someone when a person dies.
Many photos, recordings or artifacts of many things, acts or persons remind some people of difficulties in their lives.
An up-close detailed picture, that glorified the act, like the ones you can easily find on the web, those are inappropriate and should be censored.
That photo, maybe a big maybe, PG rated, but it is a documentary and should be rated as such.
Children see much worse now, simply watching games.

[kwame k]

Nice touch on the edit Nick.

Look some of the most iconic and disturbing photos have come from war or capturing a moment of tragedy/suffering........

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll103/realtodd/vietnam-war-photojpg.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll103/realtodd/vietnam-nguyenjpg.jpg

And the one from 9/11

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll103/realtodd/falling-man-lg.jpg

Should these photos have been suppressed?

[standin]

Those two are very disturbing photos. The fact the person and persons is so easily identified in their suffering makes the photo shocking.

Those are more shocking.

[kwame k]

Those are more shocking.

For who?

Sadie brought up the game-set-match-point here......against the family's express wishes. My thing is the larger issues of when is too far and should there be a boundary.

[Nickdfresh]

...
I just don't think we need a picture to understand what it looks like when we hear this soldiers legs were blown off.


Then why is Saving Private Ryan a far more effective war film than say...GI Joe?

[kwame k]

Then why is Saving Private Ryan a far more effective war film than say...GI Joe?
....or Schindler's List for that matter.

[standin]

For who?

Sadie brought up the game-set-match-point here......against the family's express wishes. My thing is the larger issues of when is too far and should there be a boundary.

Guess it would depend... Which do you rate as most shocking and least shocking in the order of 1 to 4 of the 4 photos in the thread so far? With 1 being greater than 4.

What Sadie pointed out IS the key, no one should be allowed to publish a photo against a person's or their estates wishes. Unless in the best interest of public safety.

[kwame k]

Don't rate any of them...they are all shocking and disturbing. Can't put a rating on the potential anguish those photos might of had on any of the loved ones who saw them.

[jhale667]

If it was against the family's wishes that's not really cool. On the other hand, had they never identified the soldier, it still would have been a sobering reminder of what's happening to people over there...us and them....

[Nickdfresh]

Incidentally, he was a "marine." Not a "soldier."


Carry on...

[jhale667]

Incidentally, he was a "marine." Not a "soldier."


Carry on...

"Serviceman" whatevs...;)

[thome]

Simply hype to sell pictures and give idiots somethingto talk about like they give a fukk.

Everything looks like sh!t when you blow it up.

[standin]

Don't rate any of them...they are all shocking and disturbing. Can't put a rating on the potential anguish those photos might of had on any of the loved ones who saw them.

Yea, they are no doubt. Photos manufactured or real can be that way.

But the one's where the person is not identifiable and captures a image of a person instead of a uniquely identifiable person, is more intrusive.

That photo of the Marine, could fit a lot of moments of time in the Iraq Theater.

Not comparing this at all to the horrors of war, using it to explain a common and individual photo.

However, it is like that naked picture I put up for Sarge's birthday. There was a couple people that just assumed it was me. It wasn't. Not that I haven't sat naked, I have and do, but because that person was not identifiable, She was able to be most anybody, that would sit naked at a party.

It became a common photo.

When you can identify the person, by any means, it is no longer a common photo.
IMO

[thome]

Is the "AP" doing the same thing..selling something to idiotic sheep....?


The Pro al-Qaeda website run by Samir Khan in Charlotte NC appears to be closed down, the site continued to post videos and pic’s of US servicemen being shot or blown up by Islamic terrorists while praising such well known terrorists as Osama bin-Laden, view recent posts and pic’s from Charlotte Jihadi Samir Khan’s website above. “Free Speech”, I think not.



http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/samir_khan_inshallahshaheed_house.jpg

NEW YORK — When former Guantanamo inmate Abdullah Saleh al-Ajmi blew up an Iraqi police station — and himself — in April, a U.S.-based Web site was quick to post a reaction. "This is what you call a success story," Revolution.Muslimpad said of the homicide attack, which killed six. It described al-Ajmi as a hero, a "martyrdom bomber" who sacrificed "his life for the sake of Islam."The site is believed to be the brainchild of a 22-year-old American Samir Khan (his photo above) of Tradition View Dr. Charlotte, N.C.

[standin]

Thome there is a difference between glorification, and documentation and theatrics.

Violent video games and violent movies have more headway in moving a person toward or away the acceptance of violence, especially the way it is presented.

[hideyoursheep]

Later, she showed members of his squadron all the images taken that day and the Marines flipped through them on her computer one by one.

"They did stop when they came to that moment," she said. "But none of them complained or grew angry about it. They understood that it was what it was. They understand, despite that he was their friend, it was the reality of things."

That is all that really matters.:(

[hideyoursheep]

But on the flip side, why would they not show the splattered bodies of people from the twin towers that jumped?

They're out there, but who really needs to see them?:barf:

[hideyoursheep]

Sometimes I hate this goddamn forum.

[sadaist]

The thing about the iconic photos Kwame posted...yes, they do also show the moment prior to death, but there is still that belief factor. The person is still not dead and you must use your imagination as to what happened next. Although we know, we don't see the falling man hitting, or the Vietnamese man getting the bullet. With this marine , we actually see his legs blown off, blood, meat, etc...

That also goes to the movies like Saving Private Ryan. No matter how gory it is, in the back of our minds maybe we have a bit of relief because we know it's fake hollywood stuff...no matter how real it looks. You can cry at a movie when you see a guy die, but you get over it soon after and you can't wait to catch that same guys next movie. With the marine here, we know it's real.

I mean, if the picture showed the RPG a split second before impact it would be different and more like the previous photos here. We know what's going to happen, but we don't see it.

I don't know. I just feel real bad for this kid and his family. Ranting a bit but shit like this mixes me up pretty good. Hard to have a hard line position either way.

[standin]

Jeeze, this is not going to make no better. At that point, the Marine was not deceased yet. He died on the operating table. :(

[Igosplut]

I don't know. I just feel real bad for this kid and his family. Ranting a bit but shit like this mixes me up pretty good. Hard to have a hard line position either way.

Yes it is.

But there are people that NEED to see the reality of war in it's worst.

Especially the ones who vote for it. Just like a cop has to be pepper-sprayed or tazed before using them on others, they should see first hand what their vote commands....

[chefcraig]

But there are people that NEED to see the reality of war in it's worst.

Especially the ones who vote for it. Just like a cop has to be pepper-sprayed or tazed before using them on others, they should see first hand what their vote commands....

I know how harrowing it is for the loved ones of those that serve in our armed services to await the news of the fate of a family member fighting overseas, first hand. And I sympathize with the family of Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard. At least the AP had the decency to wait until after the funeral to run the picture, but I highly question it being featured against the family's wishes.

But this isn't a question of journalistic integrity, which as we all know at this point in time is a nebulous issue, to say the least. I do believe however, that the act of recording the man's death to be a valuable service, not only to those that casually dismiss wartime losses as "the cost of doing business", yet someday, for the family itself. Hopefully, it may eventually allow for a form of the elusive concept of closure (if it exists at all), in being able to learn of the heroism their son displayed in his final moments while serving his country.

[thome]

standin:,Blaze was a Better poster:Thome there is a difference between glorification, and documentation and theatrics.

Nope there isn't just in the way they want you to think about the exact same pic.
Don't be a sheep to the contollers in the media that want to sell commercial time and buy new pool filters.


standin, where is Blaze:

Violent video games and violent movies have more headway in moving a person toward or away the acceptance of violence, especially the way it is presented.

Blaze would never play the fool and say something so absolutely rediculous.

[thome]

The thing about the iconic photos Kwame posted...yes, they do also show the moment prior to death, but there is......

Maybe some road kill cats and some other sadistic crap to get someone to believe in a point that is nothing other than propoganda from another time that has absolutely nothing to do with the present actions.

How about some pics of frogs with firecrackers up thier ass.

Maybe a cadaver from the 12th street bridge and a hitler uniform on a George Bush headshot...joke assed bullsh!t at the expense of the viewer.

But first these commercials....CAN YOU FEEL IT!!!

[thome]

Yes it is.

But there are people that NEED to see the reality of war in it's worst.

Especially the ones who vote for it. Just like a cop has to be pepper-sprayed or tazed before using them on others, they should see first hand what their vote commands....

Why, so they can boast about something, everybody over the age of three knows already...like it's -YOUR- first day or something...?

Perhaps a pic of the Space shuttle blowing up and the burnt bodies inside the crashed capsule and a caption that," Accidents are caused by the atmosphere and we must never engadge the atmophere we must surrender to the atmosphere immediatly."

And the pass it all across the table as free speech. It has nothing more to do with anything more than a pic of blown up material, that wasn't blow up before, (the viewer) didn't seem to find that pic of interest../?

Apple Pie coolling in grandmas window, doesn't sell commercial air or print time to fools.

[chefcraig]

In a discussion about preserving a man's dignity in death while serving his country, it is indeed a shame the preceding three posts should even enter into it. I'm not even sure of the point trying to be put across, but I believe it is equating the idea that death images are exploited for the sake of advertising, as if this event (and the other tragedies depicted) is mere fodder for selling corn flakes.

Well no fucking kidding. Advertising and ratings rule journalistic standards. That is not the discussion here, what is at stake is the media's coverage of the war. Comparing it to the space shuttle disaster (seen live on tv by millions of Americans) or to reduce it to "pics of frogs with firecrackers up thier ass" is not only assinine, it is insultingly disrespective while deliberately missing the point by an absurd margin.

[standin]

Exactly, there is no option of non-profit news. It is simply how will it be presented. Will it be a mess like some uncensored sites, will it be cropped and airbrushed into oblivion like some productions or will it be presented in a "this is what occurred" manor.

Anyone that thinks presentation is not a factor does not understand appropriate behaviors and might have a tendency to believe in black and white, good or bad, love or hate.

Thome,
A change of a name does not change anything conceptually. Under the letters, marks, symbols and pictures is the essence, the ember, the spark. Whatever name you choose to reside and embrace is the distance you find most comfortable from the core fusion.

Remember, you tell me who you think I am, I will tell you who you are. Take care.

[Terry]

This is where our tax dollars are going.

If one can't stomach viewing photos of what we as a nation are bringing overseas, then one really shouldn't advocate any of these wars.

This kind of stuff is what citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan have to see live in real time.

Yes, it is unfortunate the family of the soldier may have to see these images. Censoring such images (be they combat injuries or coffin-draped caskets) tends to minimize the human cost of what America does when wars are fought in the minds of the citizenry; if we can't see the results, it's easier to relegate the results to the back of our minds.

[LoungeMachine]

In a discussion about preserving a man's dignity in death while serving his country, it is indeed a shame the preceding three posts should even enter into it. .

Amen.

[Nitro Express]

I agree with Cindy Sheehan on the point that these wars continue because the average American doesn't think it's their problem. These wars continue because the politicians can get away with it because the war is over there and not here. So I'm not against any journalist showing the real carnage and bringing it home. I think it honors the dead showing what they paid.

[GAR]

Fuck that twisty hag Cindy Sheehan with a meathook!

[kwame k]

Figures you'd hate a mother of a child who went off to war.......explains why you taunted SoCal now. You just hate women don't ya little fella?

[GAR]

You need to lay off the estrogen!

[kwame k]

You need to lay off the estrogen!
...and you need serious help for your issues; racism, women, habitual liar and on and on.....

[Nitro Express]

Fuck that twisty hag Cindy Sheehan with a meathook!

Yeah. Fuck that mother who lost her son to a war started with a lie. She has been equally critical of the Obama administration which should give you a hard on.

[thome]

I agree with Cindy Sheehan on the point that these wars continue because the average American doesn't think it's their problem.

Then you are dingy...Who are these average Americans the ones you are told about ..?

I got major issue with how you seem to be saying you are controlled by a patholically depressed mourning mother, who can't let her son live and die on his own two feet.

All the while she was bieng propped up by the anti war protest organization at the cost of her own self.


These wars continue because the politicians can get away with it because the war is over there and not here. So I'm not against any journalist showing the real carnage and bringing it home. I think it honors the dead showing what they paid.
WOW You finally get it...right on!! Save this post of yours and keep it in your heart. Study it and see.

EDIT : You are not -DINGY- but, I feel that post is...no harsh on you as a people.

[thome]

Thome,
A change of a name does not change anything conceptually. Under the letters, marks, symbols and pictures is the essence, the ember, the spark. Whatever name you choose to reside and embrace is the distance you find most comfortable from the core fusion.

Remember, you tell me who you think I am, I will tell you who you are. Take care.

You are,...... A Golden Field Of Winter Wheat, Bathed In A Frost Lit, Winter Day.

[Nickdfresh]

You need to lay off the estrogen!

And you should lay off the testosterone --you suck out of a coch...

[sadaist]

OK...We've all seen the picture by now.. Without arguing with anyone, I think that brave Marine and his family would prefer he be remembered like this.



http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090904/capt.baed03297d424d5e972b9428219e1ddf.afghanistan_ death_of_a_marine_ny208.jpg?x=284&y=345&q=85&sig=jH9YsO9a7QZsvdZU.5MmPA--

[Blackflag]

Close call, but if the parents asked not to publish, that's what I'm going with.

And the photo isn't really that informative to me...more sensational. There's nothing in the photo that I couldn't have just read about. The shooting in vietnam picture above, for example, is a different story.

[standin]

OK...We've all seen the picture by now.. Without arguing with anyone, I think that brave Marine and his family would prefer he be remembered like this.



http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090904/capt.baed03297d424d5e972b9428219e1ddf.afghanistan_ death_of_a_marine_ny208.jpg?x=284&y=345&q=85&sig=jH9YsO9a7QZsvdZU.5MmPA--

Wow, he is so very young in that picture.


So sad.

[sadaist]

Wow, he is so very young in that picture.


So sad.



I know. That really struck me too. Almost as if he fudged his age to get in early. Maybe not. Seems as I get older, kids look younger too. Especially once you start having your own.

[jhale667]

Almost as if he fudged his age to get in early.

I just thought the same thing as I saw that pic...kid did look young...

[Igosplut]

OK...We've all seen the picture by now.. Without arguing with anyone, I think that brave Marine and his family would prefer he be remembered like this....

Sorry, I meant to thank that post not groan.....

[Nickdfresh]

Close call, but if the parents asked not to publish, that's what I'm going with.

And the photo isn't really that informative to me...more sensational. There's nothing in the photo that I couldn't have just read about. The shooting in vietnam picture above, for example, is a different story.

You know nothing and it's NOT a "different story." Just for the record, I would have been anti-Vietnam War and detest the morally-coward and corrupt South Vietnamese regime which caved only a couple of years after the Americans left.

But that picture is completely out of context and horribly ridden with false-symbolism. The shooter was a colonel in the South Vietnamese secret police, while the man that was executed was a junior officer in the National Liberation Front or "Viet Cong." The problem with the photo was that although the colonel was a notorious drunk and probably a cunt in his own right, the supposed "martyr victim" may have responsible for atrocities such as killing civilians for the crime of being family members of RVN gov't officials. I think he was accused of wiping out a family of six IIRC, which resulted in his execution...

He's no more a "victim" than is Charles Manson...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1%BB%85n_Ng%E1%BB%8Dc_Loan

[Nickdfresh]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-2wj37EabqU&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-2wj37EabqU&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Ha!

[sadaist]

Sorry, I meant to thank that post not groan.....


Hee hee, I bet all of the groans I've received were mistakes by you guys.;)

[Blackflag]

You know nothing and it's NOT a "different story." Just for the record, I would have been anti-Vietnam War and detest the morally-coward and corrupt South Vietnamese regime which caved only a couple of years after the Americans left.

But that picture is completely out of context and horribly ridden with false-symbolism. The shooter was a colonel in the South Vietnamese secret police, while the man that was executed was a junior officer in the National Liberation Front or "Viet Cong." The problem with the photo was that although the colonel was a notorious drunk and probably a cunt in his own right, the supposed "martyr victim" may have responsible for atrocities such as killing civilians for the crime of being family members of RVN gov't officials. I think he was accused of wiping out a family of six IIRC, which resulted in his execution...

He's no more a "victim" than is Charles Manson...

Nguyễn Ng�c Loan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1%BB%85n_Ng%E1%BB%8Dc_Loan)

I don't disagree. And there's a whole backstory to it, etc.

And isn't that different from this case, which just shows a wounded and dying Marine?

There's nothing particularly revealing about that picture, or anything I need to learn more about. It's just sensational.

But I do like the "you know nothing" comment. :hee:

[LoungeMachine]

MY OPINION:

Although the family's wishes should be taken into account, they do not get the final say. I've seen photos of traffic accident victims and victims of random violence printed as well.

How can a Marine's death NOT be considered "news"???? Have we become so used to the senseless, and needless loss of life over there as to think this isn't "news" Gee, maybe if he played NFL Football, or was the FIRST death, or the 2,000th. Some milestone.

IF he were my son, father, brother, or friend, I'd want it published with the headline: WHY DID THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN, HE WAS ONLY 21??????"

Tell me what our mission is, tell me what our exit strategy is, tell me what "victory" looks like over there, but DONT TELL me the senseless death of a 21 year old kid isnt newsworthy.

I'm willing to bet that if EVERY death over there was published in detail, the American people would be much more engaged than they are.

Talk about the "Forgotten War"

sad.

[Blackflag]

MY OPINION:

Although the family's wishes should be taken into account, they do not get the final say. I've seen photos of traffic accident victims and victims of random violence printed as well.

How can a Marine's death NOT be considered "news"???? Have we become so used to the senseless, and needless loss of life over there as to think this isn't "news" Gee, maybe if he played NFL Football, or was the FIRST death, or the 2,000th. Some milestone.

IF he were my son, father, brother, or friend, I'd want it published with the headline: WHY DID THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN, HE WAS ONLY 21??????"

Tell me what our mission is, tell me what our exit strategy is, tell me what "victory" looks like over there, but DONT TELL me the senseless death of a 21 year old kid isnt newsworthy.

I'm willing to bet that if EVERY death over there was published in detail, the American people would be much more engaged than they are.

Talk about the "Forgotten War"

sad.

It's news. And nobody's saying to not talk about it. The family didn't ask them to suppress the story.

But, given that the family asked to leave the picture out of it...was the picture really necessary? Does it really add that much to the story?

[LoungeMachine]

...was the picture really necessary? Does it really add that much to the story?

Yes.

A great deal, actually.

[Seshmeister]

This is where our tax dollars are going.

If one can't stomach viewing photos of what we as a nation are bringing overseas, then one really shouldn't advocate any of these wars.

This kind of stuff is what citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan have to see live in real time.

Yes, it is unfortunate the family of the soldier may have to see these images. Censoring such images (be they combat injuries or coffin-draped caskets) tends to minimize the human cost of what America does when wars are fought in the minds of the citizenry; if we can't see the results, it's easier to relegate the results to the back of our minds.

Indeed.

Some people complained about too much press coverage of Vietnam losing the war because the US people didn't have the stomach for it. Now though I think most people would agree it was a dumb war and not worth 50 000 US deaths so I would argue if you don't have the nerve to look at what your government is doing then you can't support it.

If this picture was of a guy whose legs were blown off on the beaches of Normandy almost no one would debate whether he should have been there or whether his sacrifice was worthwhile. The problem therefore is our discomfort in validity of this war against tribesmen in Afghanistan as a method of preventing educated Saudi or even homegrown suicide bombers attacking us.

[sadaist]

Yes.

A great deal, actually.

What exactly do you believe the picture added that could not have been expressed in words?

If your wife cheats on you & breaks your heart, do you really need a picture of it to understand what happened?

If someone tells you they vomited, do you need a picture of it to actually comprehend?

Do you need photographs of the torn pieces of people recovered from the WTC recovery site to realize what happened to people inside the building?

People like Cindy Sheehan who use the argument "costs of war", why didn't she open Caseys coffin and take a picture of his corpse to put on all her Bush protest signs? Instead she used pictures of Casey alive and well.

I don't buy the argument of people not realizing the costs without seeing a very graphic picture. It's just shock value / sensationalism and sells papers. The real reason pictures are needed is because journalism is so poor and very few write well enough to get a point across and paint an accurate picture that they need a photo to do it for them.

[Seshmeister]

I think everyone saw the WTC collapse and got an idea about the scale which is exactly why they did it.

The war in Iraq has caused tens if not hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and I've seen almost none in the media. I post a single pic of a dead kid and quite a few people here had a heart attack.

There are too many armchair generals in the world who just don't have the imagination to comprehend what numbers in a newspaper mean.

[sadaist]

I post a single pic of a dead kid and quite a few people here had a heart attack.
.

Not putting it on you for posting it here. I had heard the story the day prior I think (or earlier the same day). It was out there already. I don't really see any one having a heart attack here. Just a good discussion on the worthiness of such photographs.

[Seshmeister]

Out of mischief I posted a pic of a kid casualty in a particularly hawk saber rattling 'bomb all the towel heads' thread at VH Links and it lasted for about an hour before being removed. They were outraged and disgusted to see what they preached.

I thought that it was very valid for me to do that.

[Seshmeister]

Noone wants to look at stuff like that all day but it's important to remind ourselves every so often with a reality check.

[chefcraig]

Out of mischief I posted a pic of a kid casualty in a particularly hawk saber rattling 'bomb all the towel heads' thread at VH Links and it lasted for about an hour before being removed. They were outraged and disgusted to see what they preached.

I thought that it was very valid for me to do that.

What user name do you currently go by at the Links, Sesh? The Seshmeister tag hasn't been used in over a year.

[Nickdfresh]

I love how Brett keeps saying he doesn't allow a "political forum," yet half the threads in the "Non" over there are GOP bitch sessions...

[chefcraig]

I love how Brett keeps saying he doesn't allow a "political forum," yet half the threads in the "Non" over there are GOP bitch sessions...

There is one, but it's in the Premier Section.

[Nickdfresh]

There is one, but it's in the Premier Section.

I saw that. Premier meaning it's locked and from 2001, right?

[Nickdfresh]

As for the thread, what's the difference between this photo and pics from say WWII showing wounded and even dead Allied soldiers?

There was even a "Why We Fight" episode made that showed (almost shocking) acknowledge sacrifice and showed US soldiers being sewed up into body-bag shrouds during early fighting in North Africa...

I'm sorry for the kids parents and most of all the kid, but the photo is pretty anonymous and I wonder how exactly he was identified?

I find it much more gauling and shocking that it appears US marines and soldiers are now dying for what appears to be a corrupt regime using electoral fraud to hold onto power...

[chefcraig]

I saw that. Premier meaning it's locked and from 2001, right?

Nah, it's for those with paid memberships, like the blog section there. It isn't locked, but by the same token it's rarely used. I suggested moving it to part of "Non Music" a couple years ago (where non-paying members could use it, rather than cluttering up the what is essentially an entertainment section), but nothing was ever done about it.

[LoungeMachine]

What exactly do you believe the picture added that could not have been expressed in words?

If your wife cheats on you & breaks your heart, do you really need a picture of it to understand what happened?

If someone tells you they vomited, do you need a picture of it to actually comprehend?

.

Probably the two worst analogies I've ever read here.....

[Seshmeister]

What user name do you currently go by at the Links, Sesh? The Seshmeister tag hasn't been used in over a year.

I've only ever posted there as Seshmeister.

I almost never look over there never mind post.

Posting on the internet is a big enough waste of time without having some proud PTA committee member coming along and closing or deleting your thread.

I don't know if they still do but they used to close threads if there was an argumentative post which to me pretty much defeats the purpose completely... :)

[ZahZoo]

This is where our tax dollars are going.

If one can't stomach viewing photos of what we as a nation are bringing overseas, then one really shouldn't advocate any of these wars.

This kind of stuff is what citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan have to see live in real time.

Yes, it is unfortunate the family of the soldier may have to see these images. Censoring such images (be they combat injuries or coffin-draped caskets) tends to minimize the human cost of what America does when wars are fought in the minds of the citizenry; if we can't see the results, it's easier to relegate the results to the back of our minds.

I have to agree 120% with this!!

I believe all Americans should see the war as it is... the stark reality. Not just to sway votes but also to hold those in charge of taking it seriously, getting the job done and finishing it.

[sadaist]

Probably the two worst analogies I've ever read here.....

LMAO. yeah. Look what time I posted them. Been fighting insomnia during the weekend and was finally about to crash hard. Guess I should avoid posting then. The 3rd one made more sense. I hate posting in a bad state of mind then coming back more lucid later and thinking WTF?

Or...read them again when you're in a messed up frame of mind. Maybe then they'll make more sense. You know...beer goggles or something.

[bantonelli]

[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;1380206]Incidentally, he was a "marine." Not a "soldier."


Carry on...[/QUOTE


If we're going to be technical, he was an "American"... but I totally got the gist of what Jhale was referencing. He was one of ours.

[hideyoursheep]

I honestly don't understand the parents' point of view of not wanting the picture public.

The guy was 21. He signed up voluntarily. He was aware of the risks. The risks are real. The picture clearly points that out. It was in no way disrespectful.

We have no idea of just how many photos we've all seen over the years that included wounded troops that died later on. Would it have made a difference if it were in black and white?
Is anyone familiar with the old custom of post-mortem pictures? That to me is more disturbing than capturing the moment someone is wounded in battle.

A picture really is worth a thousand words. There is no printed article that can bring you any closer to the hell on earth that combat is. It isn't glamorous.

I can't speak for his folks, or even my own if something would have happened to me, but if it were left up to me, personally, I wouldn't give a shit. Make T-shirts for all I care. But like I said, that's just me.

If it were my son, I'd have a hard time viewing it, and I wouldn't mind the picture being used, so long as I was notified of his vital status beforehand.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time looking at this one.

But it NEEDS to be out there. The shit is REAL.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I honestly don't understand the parents' point of view of not wanting the picture public.

The guy was 21. He signed up voluntarily. He was aware of the risks. The risks are real. The picture clearly points that out. It was in no way disrespectful.

We have no idea of just how many photos we've all seen over the years that included wounded troops that died later on. Would it have made a difference if it were in black and white?
Is anyone familiar with the old custom of post-mortem pictures? That to me is more disturbing than capturing the moment someone is wounded in battle.

A picture really is worth a thousand words. There is no printed article that can bring you any closer to the hell on earth that combat is. It isn't glamorous.

I can't speak for his folks, or even my own if something would have happened to me, but if it were left up to me, personally, I wouldn't give a shit. Make T-shirts for all I care. But like I said, that's just me.

If it were my son, I'd have a hard time viewing it, and I wouldn't mind the picture being used, so long as I was notified of his vital status beforehand.

To be honest with you, I have a hard time looking at this one.

But it NEEDS to be out there. The shit is REAL.

The parental point of view is what I keep coming back to though...

As the father of two boys, one of which is old enough to be considering joining the military, it would be devastating enough to get contacted that he was killed in combat...

But then if I was to see that, or I guess even moreso his mother, I dunno, it would just tear me apart....

[Seshmeister]

Show some pics like this to the kid that's considering joining the military and it may solve the problem.

[Nickdfresh]

If we're going to be technical, he was an "American"... but I totally got the gist of what Jhale was referencing. He was one of ours.

Well goodie. My "point" was that marines don't typically like being referred to as "soldiers" since they are marines. Soldiers are in the Army, and marines are in the Marine Corp. Airmen are in the Air Force, and sailors are in the Navy...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

It's "Marines" and "Sailors" and "Soldiers" and "Airmen"....

But yeah, the media fucks that up all the time, drives me nuts...

[Guitar Shark]

I love how Brett keeps saying he doesn't allow a "political forum," yet half the threads in the "Non" over there are GOP bitch sessions...

There is a distinct conservative majority over there, mods and non-mods alike. I've found that they are pretty intolerant of opposing viewpoints.

[binnie]

As for the thread, what's the difference between this photo and pics from say WWII showing wounded and even dead Allied soldiers?

.

I think that the difference is distance. If the photo was published 20, 30, 40 years from now then the pain felt by his family by his loss wouldn't have been so acute.

Personally, I think it was disrespectful of the family to publish it. I can see the validity of the view that such a blunt representation provides a 'reality check' for those who view it, but it seems to me that a society which needs reminding that war is horrible is beyond the help that any pictorial reality check can provide.

21 - what a sad end.

This isn't intended as an attack on your post Nick, just a contribution to the debate.

[bantonelli]

Well goodie. My "point" was that marines don't typically like being referred to as "soldiers" since they are marines. Soldiers are in the Army, and marines are in the Marine Corp. Airmen are in the Air Force, and sailors are in the Navy...

Thanks for the correction, Nick.

[hideyoursheep]

Nice touch on the edit Nick.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll103/realtodd/vietnam-nguyenjpg.jpg

I like this one better..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/Federaljim/HagarPwn3d-Diamondjimi-09.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

LMFAO!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Nickdfresh/sam.gif

[Nickdfresh]

[/Fallen Marine's father wants change
John Bernard has been critical of the rules of engagement in Afghanistan
The Associated Press
updated 3:40 p.m. ET, Tues., Oct . 13, 2009

NEW PORTLAND, Maine - It was the last way John Bernard would have wanted his voice to gain prominence in the national debate over the war in Afghanistan.

The retired Marine had been writing to lawmakers for weeks complaining of the new rules of engagement he believed put U.S. troops at unacceptable risk in the insurgency-wracked country. He got little response.

Then Bernard's only son, 21-year-old Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard — a Marine like his dad — was killed in an insurgent ambush in Afghanistan's volatile Helmand province, the latest victim of a surge in U.S. combat deaths.

Three weeks later, Joshua became the face of that toll when The Associated Press published photos of the dying Marine against his father's wishes and John Bernard was thrust into a national debate about the role of the press in wartime.

Suddenly, for all the worst reasons, John Bernard's voice was being heard.

New resonance to his view
The loss of his son and the furor over the photo have given new resonance to his view that changes must be made in how the war is fought before President Barack Obama sends any more troops to battle the Taliban and al-Qaida.

"For better or for worse, I may be the face of this. That's fine," said Bernard, sitting on his porch as he drank coffee from a Marine Corps mug. "As soon as someone bigger can run with it, they can have the whole thing."

Bernard's criticism is aimed at new rules of engagement imposed by Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the senior American commander in Afghanistan, five weeks before Joshua Bernard was killed. They limit the use of airstrikes and require troops to break off combat when civilians are present, even if it means letting the enemy escape. They also call for greater cooperation with the Afghan National Army.

Under those rules, John Bernard said, Marines and soldiers are being denied artillery and air support for fear of killing civilians, and the Taliban is using that to its tactical advantage. In a letter to his congressman and Maine's U.S. senators, Bernard condemned "the insanity of the current situation and the suicidal position this administration has placed these warriors in."

"We've abandoned them in this Catch-22 where we're supposed to defend the population, but we can't defend them because we can't engage the enemy that is supposed to be the problem," he said in an interview with the AP.

The military says the new rules, while riskier in the short run, will ultimately mean fewer casualties.

Before Joshua died, his father lived quietly as a professional carpenter and church volunteer.

Son hit by grenade
That changed on Aug. 14, when Joshua was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade while acting as point man for his squad in the town of Dahaneh. He died that night on the operating table.

On Sept. 4, the AP distributed a photo of the mortally wounded Marine being tended to by comrades. Many newspapers opted against using the photo, and the distribution launched a fierce public debate, especially after Defense Secretary Robert Gates publicly criticized the AP.

John Bernard still believes the AP's decision to release the photo — to show the horror of war and the sacrifice of those fighting it — was inexcusable, but he says the bigger issue is how the war is being conducted.

As he sees it, the U.S. was right to go to war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but eight years later the focus has shifted to counterinsurgency instead of hunting down the enemy. Marines are trained to "kill people and break things," not to be police officers and nation-builders, he says.

The Taliban "are tenacious and you have to fight them with the same level of tenacity," Bernard said. "If you're going to try to go over there as a peacekeeper, you're going to get your butt handed to you, and that's what's going on right now."

Bernard also disagrees with U.S. troops working side by side with Afghan soldiers and police. The mission on which his son was killed was compromised by someone who tipped off the Taliban, he says, citing gunfire from all directions that targeted the Marines' helicopter when it landed. Bernard believes the Marines were led into a trap.

Writes a blog to share views
Bernard writes a blog sharing his views with others.

"I don't think John changed because his son died," his pastor, the Rev. Valmore Vigue, said. "He was committed to this cause because he believed it was right, and that's why he's doing it."

It's been a little more than a month since Joshua was buried in a small cemetery about five miles from their 1865 farmhouse in the rolling hills of western Maine, where the leaves of maples, oak, birch and poplars are turning fiery red, orange and yellow.

Bernard has accepted the loss, but his grief is obvious. He pauses from time to time to take deep breaths as he speaks of his son. Several times, he closes his eyes, as if remembering.

Bernard, 55, joined the Marines in 1972 and served 26 years on active and reserve duty, leading a platoon as a scout sniper in the first Gulf War in 1991. Physically fit, with closely cropped hair and a Marine Corps tattoo on his arm, the retired first sergeant remains a competitive shooter.

He and his wife, Sharon, raised Joshua and their daughter, Katie, 25, in New Portland, population 800. The family attended Crossroads Bible Church in nearby Madison.

Father and son shared the same philosophy: service to God, family, country and Marines — in that order, Bernard said.

Joshua was quiet, polite and determined. He led a Bible study in Afghanistan and earned the call sign "Holy Man." He also was a crack shot — best in his company, his father said.

Request denied for artillery fire support
Bernard says the battle that claimed Joshua's life was just one example of all that's wrong in Afghanistan.

When four Marines were killed in another ambush, near the Pakistan border, a McClatchy Newspapers reporter embedded with the unit wrote that its request for artillery fire support was declined because of the rules of engagement. The reporter quoted Marines as saying women and children were replenishing the insurgents' ammunition.

In another recent incident, an Afghan police officer on patrol with U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Americans, killing two of them. The assailant managed to escape.

The solution isn't that complicated, Bernard said. He wants the U.S. military to return to its original mission of chasing and killing the Taliban and al-Qaida. Otherwise, he said, bring the troops home.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, raised Bernard's concerns to Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during an Armed Services Committee meeting last month.

"Getting this right in the long run will actually result in fewer casualties," Mullen said, according to a transcript of the hearing. "That doesn't mean risk isn't up higher now, given the challenges we have and the direction that McChrystal has laid out."

Rep. Mike Michaud, D-Maine, also raised Bernard's concerns in a letter to Gates, requesting that someone from the Pentagon chief's office formally contact Bernard. So far, no one has.

As a retired Marine, Bernard said he's obligated to speak up. His son is now gone, but he said others are still at risk.

"We've got guys in harm's way getting shot at and getting killed," he said. "To me, it's immoral that anybody in this country wouldn't have that first and last on their minds."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33296515/ns/us_news-military/)

[Va Beach VH Fan]

He's absolutely right, the mission has changed dramatically in the 8 years they've been there....

[Seshmeister]

I can't understand his argument that not killing indiscriminately is somehow immoral.

Then again I don't really get the shooting people in the head for Jesus thing either...

[BITEYOASS]

[/Fallen Marine's father wants change
John Bernard has been critical of the rules of engagement in Afghanistan
The Associated Press
updated 3:40 p.m. ET, Tues., Oct . 13, 2009

NEW PORTLAND, Maine - It was the last way John Bernard would have wanted his voice to gain prominence in the national debate over the war in Afghanistan.

The retired Marine had been writing to lawmakers for weeks complaining of the new rules of engagement he believed put U.S. troops at unacceptable risk in the insurgency-wracked country. He got little response.

Then Bernard's only son, 21-year-old Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard — a Marine like his dad — was killed in an insurgent ambush in Afghanistan's volatile Helmand province, the latest victim of a surge in U.S. combat deaths.

Three weeks later, Joshua became the face of that toll when The Associated Press published photos of the dying Marine against his father's wishes and John Bernard was thrust into a national debate about the role of the press in wartime.

Suddenly, for all the worst reasons, John Bernard's voice was being heard.

New resonance to his view
The loss of his son and the furor over the photo have given new resonance to his view that changes must be made in how the war is fought before President Barack Obama sends any more troops to battle the Taliban and al-Qaida.

"For better or for worse, I may be the face of this. That's fine," said Bernard, sitting on his porch as he drank coffee from a Marine Corps mug. "As soon as someone bigger can run with it, they can have the whole thing."

Bernard's criticism is aimed at new rules of engagement imposed by Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the senior American commander in Afghanistan, five weeks before Joshua Bernard was killed. They limit the use of airstrikes and require troops to break off combat when civilians are present, even if it means letting the enemy escape. They also call for greater cooperation with the Afghan National Army.

Under those rules, John Bernard said, Marines and soldiers are being denied artillery and air support for fear of killing civilians, and the Taliban is using that to its tactical advantage. In a letter to his congressman and Maine's U.S. senators, Bernard condemned "the insanity of the current situation and the suicidal position this administration has placed these warriors in."

"We've abandoned them in this Catch-22 where we're supposed to defend the population, but we can't defend them because we can't engage the enemy that is supposed to be the problem," he said in an interview with the AP.

The military says the new rules, while riskier in the short run, will ultimately mean fewer casualties.

Before Joshua died, his father lived quietly as a professional carpenter and church volunteer.

Son hit by grenade
That changed on Aug. 14, when Joshua was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade while acting as point man for his squad in the town of Dahaneh. He died that night on the operating table.

On Sept. 4, the AP distributed a photo of the mortally wounded Marine being tended to by comrades. Many newspapers opted against using the photo, and the distribution launched a fierce public debate, especially after Defense Secretary Robert Gates publicly criticized the AP.

John Bernard still believes the AP's decision to release the photo — to show the horror of war and the sacrifice of those fighting it — was inexcusable, but he says the bigger issue is how the war is being conducted.

As he sees it, the U.S. was right to go to war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but eight years later the focus has shifted to counterinsurgency instead of hunting down the enemy. Marines are trained to "kill people and break things," not to be police officers and nation-builders, he says.

The Taliban "are tenacious and you have to fight them with the same level of tenacity," Bernard said. "If you're going to try to go over there as a peacekeeper, you're going to get your butt handed to you, and that's what's going on right now."

Bernard also disagrees with U.S. troops working side by side with Afghan soldiers and police. The mission on which his son was killed was compromised by someone who tipped off the Taliban, he says, citing gunfire from all directions that targeted the Marines' helicopter when it landed. Bernard believes the Marines were led into a trap.

Writes a blog to share views
Bernard writes a blog sharing his views with others.

"I don't think John changed because his son died," his pastor, the Rev. Valmore Vigue, said. "He was committed to this cause because he believed it was right, and that's why he's doing it."

It's been a little more than a month since Joshua was buried in a small cemetery about five miles from their 1865 farmhouse in the rolling hills of western Maine, where the leaves of maples, oak, birch and poplars are turning fiery red, orange and yellow.

Bernard has accepted the loss, but his grief is obvious. He pauses from time to time to take deep breaths as he speaks of his son. Several times, he closes his eyes, as if remembering.

Bernard, 55, joined the Marines in 1972 and served 26 years on active and reserve duty, leading a platoon as a scout sniper in the first Gulf War in 1991. Physically fit, with closely cropped hair and a Marine Corps tattoo on his arm, the retired first sergeant remains a competitive shooter.

He and his wife, Sharon, raised Joshua and their daughter, Katie, 25, in New Portland, population 800. The family attended Crossroads Bible Church in nearby Madison.

Father and son shared the same philosophy: service to God, family, country and Marines — in that order, Bernard said.

Joshua was quiet, polite and determined. He led a Bible study in Afghanistan and earned the call sign "Holy Man." He also was a crack shot — best in his company, his father said.

Request denied for artillery fire support
Bernard says the battle that claimed Joshua's life was just one example of all that's wrong in Afghanistan.

When four Marines were killed in another ambush, near the Pakistan border, a McClatchy Newspapers reporter embedded with the unit wrote that its request for artillery fire support was declined because of the rules of engagement. The reporter quoted Marines as saying women and children were replenishing the insurgents' ammunition.

In another recent incident, an Afghan police officer on patrol with U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Americans, killing two of them. The assailant managed to escape.

The solution isn't that complicated, Bernard said. He wants the U.S. military to return to its original mission of chasing and killing the Taliban and al-Qaida. Otherwise, he said, bring the troops home.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, raised Bernard's concerns to Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during an Armed Services Committee meeting last month.

"Getting this right in the long run will actually result in fewer casualties," Mullen said, according to a transcript of the hearing. "That doesn't mean risk isn't up higher now, given the challenges we have and the direction that McChrystal has laid out."

Rep. Mike Michaud, D-Maine, also raised Bernard's concerns in a letter to Gates, requesting that someone from the Pentagon chief's office formally contact Bernard. So far, no one has.

As a retired Marine, Bernard said he's obligated to speak up. His son is now gone, but he said others are still at risk.

"We've got guys in harm's way getting shot at and getting killed," he said. "To me, it's immoral that anybody in this country wouldn't have that first and last on their minds."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33296515/ns/us_news-military/)

I'll take a former Marine's advice over any politician or news blowhard, any day of the week.

[hideyoursheep]

Yeah....it's not about OUR guys getting killed anymore, it's about the civilians.

What type of uniform were the people in the WTC wearing again?

It's time for Operation Mind-Fuck.

Announce that we're giving up....pulling out. Give a timetable. Let them watch us leave.

Let them come out of the woodwork like the cockroaches they are and celebrate the great victory they've won over the "infidels". Let them re-establish themselves.

Then, without warning, make a U-turn....



Ka-Boom, baby!



Any word on that kid who was captured while "falling behind during a patrol"? What happened to him?

[vh rides again]

they shouldnt have gave his name.

[Seshmeister]

Yeah....it's not about OUR guys getting killed anymore, it's about the civilians.

What type of uniform were the people in the WTC wearing again?

You mean the attack arranged for, paid for, and committed by Saudi Arabians?

Why would anyone want to kill primitive tribes people in Afghanistan because of that? Because Jesus told them to?

[Nickdfresh]

There is a distinct conservative majority over there, mods and non-mods alike. I've found that they are pretty intolerant of opposing viewpoints.

Of course, because Van Hagar fans are Republicans. :)

[Jesus Christ]

Why would anyone want to kill primitive tribes people in Afghanistan because of that? Because Jesus told them to?

I most certainly told them no such thing. :(

[ELVIS]

Then again I don't really get the shooting people in the head for Jesus thing either...

Neither do I...

Do you have a specific example ??

[Seshmeister]

The specific example is the guy and his son who purport to be god botherers.

[hideyoursheep]

I'll take a former Marine's advice over any politician or news blowhard, any day of the week.


Not ME!


<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/oliver%20north" target="_blank"><img src="http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m38/jnewton_01/oliver_north.jpg" border="0" alt="olly Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

[hideyoursheep]

You mean the attack arranged for, paid for, and committed by Saudi Arabians?Why do you suppose those Saudi's are hiding behind the skirts of women in Afghanistan?


Why would anyone want to kill primitive tribes people in Afghanistan because of that? Because Jesus told them to?Tell me you're joking...please.

Well for starters, I don't WANT to kill anybody. No one in their right mind would. Which brings me back to these Saudis you referred to earlier...