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Nickdfresh
09-11-2009, 09:20 AM
Eight Years After 9/11: Why Osama bin Laden is a Failure
By TONY KARON Tony Karon 47 mins ago

He may have eluded justice and the long reach of the world's most powerful military force; his followers may (and probably will) strike again at some point in the future, near or distant; but history's verdict on Osama bin Laden has been in for some time, now: Al-Qaeda failed.

The 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington - like those that preceded it in East Africa in 1998 and those that followed in London, Madrid, Bali and other places - were tactical successes, in that they managed to kill hundreds of innocents, grab the world's headlines and briefly dominate the nightmares of Western policy makers. But the strategy of which those attacks formed part has proven to be fundamentally flawed. Terrorism departs from the rules of war by deliberately targeting the innocent, but it shares the basic motive force of conventional warfare - "the pursuit of politics by other means, " as Clausewitz wrote. (See pictures of the challenge of memorializing 9/11.)

The purpose of the 9/11 attacks was not simply to kill Americans; they formed part of Bin Laden's strategy to launch a global Islamist revolution aimed at ending U.S. influence in Muslim countries, overthrowing regimes there allied with Washington, and putting al-Qaeda at the head of a global Islamist insurgency whose objective was to restore the rule of the Islamic Caliphate that had once ruled territory stretching from Moorish Spain through much of Asia. (See pictures of Osama Bin Laden.)

Today, of course, al-Qaeda is believed to comprise a couple of hundred desperate men, their core leaders hiding out in Pakistan's tribal wilds and under constant threat of attack by ever-present U.S. drone aircraft, their place in Western nightmares and security assessments long-since eclipsed by such longtime rivals as Iran, Hizballah, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. This year's official threat assessment by the U.S. Directorate of National Intelligence cited the primary security challenge facing the U.S. as the global economic downturn. The report cited "notable progress in Muslim public opinion turning against terrorist groups like al-Qaeda", and said no country was at risk of falling to Qaeda-inspired extremists. It argued that sustained pressure against the movement's surviving core in the Pakistani tribal wilds was degrading its organizational cohesion and diminishing the threat it poses.

Sure, al-Qaeda continues to issue vituperative missives by video from its hideouts, many of them directed at the likes of Iran and Hamas. But Hamas spokesman Osama Hamdan seemed to sum up al-Qaeda's plight two years ago, when responding to a particularly rabid attack from Bin Laden's number two. Ayman al-Zawahiri had accused Hamas of "joining the surrender train" by participating in elections and agreeing to form a unity government with Fatah. Hamas, sneered Hamdan in rsponse, had no need of advice from "a fugitive in the Afghan mountains" and did not accept criticism from "those who do not know what is going on." (See pictures of life under Hamas in Gaza.)

Even among those who share much of Bin Laden's animus to the U.S. and Israel, al-Qaeda has remained largely irrelevant, its strategy of globa l jihad rejected in favor of an Islamist radicalism focused on more limited national goals.

The flaw in Bin Laden's strategy of trying to capture the imagination of the Muslim masses through spectacular acts of terror was obvious even in the immediate wake of 9/11. In much of the Arab and Muslim world, there was a pervasive refusal to believe that Muslims had been responsible for the attacks, even after Bin Laden claimed responsibility. The denial inherent in the tendency common from Egypt to Indonesia to blame the Mossad or the CIA for 9/11 reveal a damning negation of al-Qaeda's tactics - so repulsive was the mass murder of innocents to ordinary Muslims that most refused to celebrate the attacks, as Bin Laden had hoped they might, but instead sought to blame them on those deemed enemies of Islam. (Read: "How to Remember 9/11.")

Even in countries where al-Qaeda had hoped to capitalize on resentment against American influence, its networks were largely rolled up by security services as the population looked on, indifferent. By invading Iraq, the Bush Administration arguably did a far more effective job than Bin Laden had d one of weakening U.S. influence in the Muslim world and rallying its youth to resistance. Yet, even in Iraq, al-Qaeda's effort to gain control of the resistance failed because its ideology and tactics were so loathsome even to the bulk of the Sunni insurgents fighting the Americans that they eventually made common cause with the U.S. against the jihadists.

Even in Afghanistan, Bin Laden's erstwhile stomping ground, the fight against the U.S. is being waged by the Taliban, which may have been an ally of al-Qaeda but exists entirely independently of Bin Laden's movement and will ultimately make its strategic decisions based on its own, national interests. The sobering reality for Bin Laden is that even among those dedicated to resist the U.S. and its allies, his ideology of global jihad against the "far enemy" (the United States) has failed to supplant the more pragmatic Islamist movements such as Hamas, Hizballah and Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, all of whom limit themselves to clearly defined national objectives, eliciting increasingly manic denunciations from al-Qaeda's cave-dwellers. (See pictures of the U.S. Marines new offensive in Afghanistan.)

Senator John Kerry invited ridicule from the Bush Administration while running for President in 2004, when he made the point that terrorism was essentially a law enforcement and intelligence problem. "We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance," he told the New York Times, suggesting that the goal was to reach a point where the specter of al-Qaeda "isn't threatening people's lives every day, and fundamentally, it's something that you continue to fight, but it's not threatening the fabric of your life."

Not even another 9/11 scale terror attack would succeed in launching al-Qaeda's revolution. The years since 9/11 have seen events in Gaza, Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan escalating Muslim hostility towards Israel and the U.S., and those Arab regimes deemed too willing to do Washington's bidding. But, even so, al-Qaeda remains a marginal factor. Bin Laden may have imagined that 9/11 would anoint him the head of a resurgent Caliphate in the making, but instead it has reduced him, and his movement, to a life of duck-and-cover in Pakistan's wild frontier - and a political address otherwise known as oblivion. History marches on without them.

Time @ Yahoo.com (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090911/us_time/08599192175800)

Va Beach VH Fan
09-11-2009, 09:44 AM
I couldn't disagree more with this guy...

Bin Laden's plan succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.. The planning of the hijacking of the planes, the training of the hijackers, and not only that 3 of the 4 planes successfully achieved their respective targets, but the collapsing of the both towers in NYC can not be construed as anything other than a success...

Not to mention the increased security to this day, eight years later, in just about any significant public place....

chefcraig
09-11-2009, 09:54 AM
The basic, inherent flaw with terrorism is it's over reliance on the symbolic act, an attention getting device used to draw people to the voice of the perpetrator in order to foment an agenda. The problem with the act is that it more often than not fails to galvanize support from the people intended to get the message. For instance, look at the absurd behavior of groups like Act-Up or PETA. (No, I am not about to compare the worldwide slaughter of thousands of human beings to a bunch of socially warped homosexual or animal activists, only the oddly misplaced idealism.) By holding up traffic or offering children offensive material at fast-food joints, the activist merely inconveniences or worse yet, alienates those he wishes to draw support from. It's more or less like a politician urinating in a baby's face, then stating to the kid's mother he's all for stiffer penalties for child abusers, and to please vote for him.

The logic is nebulous at best, and murderously idiotic at worst. It is one thing to have the will of the people behind you, as a people united in the strength of belief can move mountains. The trick is in how one goes about gaining that trust and support in the first place. And let's not forget that the infighting of a movement's leaders amongst themselves can often undo what the efforts of outside forces could not: bring about utter it's collapse from the inside.

Over the past 18 months or so, there have been hints that Al-Qaeda may in fact be crumbling from within. The failure of the group by it's own hand would not only be poetic justice, it would hold a sweet irony that everyone, not just historians, would appreciate. Achtung, baby! Indeed.

Dr. Love
09-11-2009, 10:49 AM
I couldn't disagree more with this guy...

Bin Laden's plan succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.. The planning of the hijacking of the planes, the training of the hijackers, and not only that 3 of the 4 planes successfully achieved their respective targets, but the collapsing of the both towers in NYC can not be construed as anything other than a success...

Not to mention the increased security to this day, eight years later, in just about any significant public place....

Those are all very specific, tactical successes. It doesn't do anything to further a strategic goal, however. It changed our lives, yes -- but if it had been some other group to do the same thing with wildly different end goals (say, the dissolution of the United States), the end result would have been the same.

They'd've score a tactical win and a strategic loss. If anything, the attacks had a further negative impact on Al-Qaeda than on the US. We have to wade through security at the airport whenever we fly. They have to constantly move their location and keep an eye on the sky to try to avoid being killed.

Panamark
09-11-2009, 10:57 AM
Off topic here (As I believe Bin Laden is dead) have any of the
post 9/11 Bin Laden videos been proven beyond doubt to be real ?

Nickdfresh
09-11-2009, 11:26 AM
I couldn't disagree more with this guy...

Bin Laden's plan succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.. The planning of the hijacking of the planes, the training of the hijackers, and not only that 3 of the 4 planes successfully achieved their respective targets, but the collapsing of the both towers in NYC can not be construed as anything other than a success...

Not to mention the increased security to this day, eight years later, in just about any significant public place....

So in essence, he won the battle (a terrorist masterpiece), but lost the War (support of the Islamic world). Hence, the terms tactical victory and strategic defeat.

Nickdfresh
09-11-2009, 11:33 AM
I recommend everyone view BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares," (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/front-line/24239-must-see-documentary-now-available-online.html) which goes into depth on this notion of Islamic terrorism using mass-violence, and how they've lost in every country using these horrific tactics as they only alienate those they seek the support of. I think the best example of a prolonged terrorist insurgency would be Algeria where the Army (or gov't security forces) crushed Islamic insurgents even though the Islamists had won an election and initially held the popular will. Their tactics ultimately drove the popular will behind the gov't forcing a crushing defeat in some cases, or negotiations for power-sharing in the more moderate groups...

Igosplut
09-11-2009, 12:14 PM
As much as I dislike Kerry, I do agree with his statement in that article.

Nitro Express
09-11-2009, 03:18 PM
Bin Laden should have taken out the power grid. Sure he caused a big ruckus and killed around 3,000 people. It just gave the anglo-american alliance an excuse to invade the middle east and surround Russia and China. If Bin Laden's aim was at ruining life for the average American, he succeeded, he gave our govt. the excuse to clamp down on us but the people he really should hate got richer off his terrorism.

Nitro Express
09-11-2009, 03:20 PM
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Blackflag
09-12-2009, 12:43 AM
If Bin Laden's aim was at ruining life for the average American, he succeeded,

That was part of it, but I think he also said at the time that he was trying to bring down the whole U.S. economy. Looking at where we're at right now, he did a decent job. You certainly can't say he failed. It wasn't about just taking down a building.

And asshole Kerry voted for the patriot act, for the war, for all the new military appropriations... So it's ironic for him to say shit.

Nickdfresh
09-12-2009, 07:36 AM
That was part of it, but I think he also said at the time that he was trying to bring down the whole U.S. economy. Looking at where we're at right now, he did a decent job. You certainly can't say he failed. It wasn't about just taking down a building.

Then Bin Laden hit the wrong fucking building in NYC, if he had taken out Wall St., he might have done us all a favor. And greedy assholes have done far more to bring down the economy than Bin Laden or the asshole that actually did most of the planning who doesn't even like Bin Laden.

The Dow dropped after 9/11, but the direct problems were short lived and it was the corporate scandals that did the real damage. Remember ENRON, World Com, or Adelphia?


And asshole Kerry voted for the patriot act, for the war, for all the new military appropriations... So it's ironic for him to say shit.

WTF does that have to do with anything? How does that in anyway make his statement wrong?

And the War and the unPatriot Act were driven through without the slightest thought due to fear mongering and loathing. Kerry wasn't going to be elected if he hadn't. He voted for the War, for the ironically named act, but yet was still labeled a "traitor" for some stupid (yet somewhat true) statements he uttered 40 years ago...

Coyote
09-12-2009, 08:46 AM
I assume I'm the only one who thinks Bin Laden was nothing but a boogey-man from day 1...

standin
09-12-2009, 11:53 AM
I believe that to an extent. More legend than real. I do think at one point he was a general, commander or whatever rank being used to screw up what infrastructure USSR was building over there.
Once a leader or commander goes from direct communications to indirect communications the ease to create false "orders" or faked anything becomes 999&#37; easier.

Blackflag
09-12-2009, 01:18 PM
Then Bin Laden hit the wrong fucking building in NYC, if he had taken out Wall St., he might have done us all a favor. And greedy assholes have done far more to bring down the economy than Bin Laden or the asshole that actually did most of the planning who doesn't even like Bin Laden.

Next time you can advise him on how to do it better. I'd say he did alright. btw - none of the markets require a building on Wall St. to continue trading.



The Dow dropped after 9/11, but the direct problems were short lived and it was the corporate scandals that did the real damage. Remember ENRON, World Com, or Adelphia?

Short lived? How is the economy 8 year later?





And the War and the unPatriot Act were driven through without the slightest thought due to fear mongering and loathing. Kerry wasn't going to be elected if he hadn't. He voted for the War, for the ironically named act, but yet was still labeled a "traitor" for some stupid (yet somewhat true) statements he uttered 40 years ago...

Fear mongering based on what? What was the catalyst for all of it? If you listen to bin Laden, it was what he expected. It certainly wasn't unforeseeable that the country would curtail freedoms, spend trillions on war, go into debt. Lots of people predicted it, and so did he.

yah
09-12-2009, 01:55 PM
Blow all of those slimy al-Qaidas up....that's the solution!!!
finding them seems to be the problem....

Nickdfresh
09-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Next time you can advise him on how to do it better. I'd say he did alright. btw - none of the markets require a building on Wall St. to continue trading.

That may be true, but he would have killed less FDNY and more CEOs...

And the markets continued on without the Twin Towers, and the economic damage was limited to mainly a single, sharp drop in the Dow...


Short lived? How is the economy 8 year later?

Read my previous post, or are you pretending it doesn't exist. Or maybe you can explain how al Qaida is responsible for the Housing Bubble, the credit crunch, the corporate ethics crisis, and the collapse of the auto industry...


Fear mongering based on what? What was the catalyst for all of it? If you listen to bin Laden, it was what he expected. It certainly wasn't unforeseeable that the country would curtail freedoms, spend trillions on war, go into debt. Lots of people predicted it, and so did he.

It was based on an administration of assholes that decided, in the words of fmr. Anti-terror Tsar Richard Clarke parenthetically, to use a national tragedy to further their Freedum Fries&#174; agenda and pre-existing plans&#169; to invade Iraq...

And Bin Laden was more interested in a mass uprising of Muslims in the middle east against the West, spurned on by a single act of mass violence....

Blackflag
09-12-2009, 05:33 PM
That may be true, but he would have killed less FDNY and more CEOs...

I'm pretty sure the CEO's don't work on Wall St., but if you just want to pound your fist that you'd rather bin Laden kill one american versus another, sure, have at it... :umm:



And the markets continued on without the Twin Towers, and the economic damage was limited to mainly a single, sharp drop in the Dow...

No, that's wrong. I mean, is that how you measure economic damage? The Dow?







Read my previous post, or are you pretending it doesn't exist. Or maybe you can explain how al Qaida is responsible for the Housing Bubble, the credit crunch, the corporate ethics crisis, and the collapse of the auto industry...

I would argue that everything was accelerated by the war spending and deficit spending. Which are a result of 9/11.





It was based on an administration of assholes that decided, in the words of fmr. Anti-terror Tsar Richard Clarke parenthetically, to use a national tragedy to further their Freedum Fries® agenda and pre-existing plans© to invade Iraq...

And none of that was unforeseeable. You could say it was a coincidence that this all happened after 9/11. Or you could believe it when he said that that was his design - he knew what the government's reaction was going to be. Knowing Bush and Cheney, and all those chicken hawks...did it really take a genius to figure out what was going to happen if you gave them a catalyst? Hard to say.



And Bin Laden was more interested in a mass uprising of Muslims in the middle east against the West, spurned on by a single act of mass violence....

Yeah, because there's a lot they can do to the U.S. on the other side of the planet. They can't even uprise against their own countries, let alone the West. :umm:

Nickdfresh
09-12-2009, 05:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the CEO's don't work on Wall St., but if you just want to pound your fist that you'd rather bin Laden kill one american versus another, sure, have at it... :umm:

He didn't just kill Americans. And the point is that there are many more Americans that did more collective damage to the economy than 9/11 did...


No, that's wrong. I mean, is that how you measure economic damage? The Dow?

You tell me. You're the one contending that some singular cause-and-effect was at work with no explanation or actual evidence offered...


I would argue that everything was accelerated by the war spending and deficit spending. Which are a result of 9/11.

That "result" of 9/11 was the reaction of those in power to it. Was Bin Laden making US foreign policy decisions or something?


And none of that was unforeseeable. You could say it was a coincidence that this all happened after 9/11. Or you could believe it when he said that that was his design - he knew what the government's reaction was going to be. Knowing Bush and Cheney, and all those chicken hawks...did it really take a genius to figure out what was going to happen if you gave them a catalyst? Hard to say.

He clearly didn't expect the result or al Qaida, assuming they have this sort of hyper-competence that you seem to agree with the Neo Cons on BTW, would have planned follow on attacks other than conning some mentally ill douchebag to light his shoe bombs on a French airliner.

The only way al Qaida comes close to achieving what you say they did was with successive, periodic terror attacks in waves after 9/11. These never materialized because they got lucky and never were really all that powerful or competent...


Yeah, because there's a lot they can do to the U.S. on the other side of the planet. They can't even uprise against their own countries, let alone the West. :umm:

Their overall premise is to seize the world's oil supply and drive up prices to enrich the Middle Eastern peoples, under their regime of course. And it's interesting, you give Osama a degree of insightful omnipotence in one statement, then castigate him as ineffective on the other...

Blackflag
09-12-2009, 05:52 PM
All I'm saying is that, at the time, bin Laden was saying in his videos was that his plan was to bring down the U.S. economy. At the time, people said, 'bullshit - the dow already rebounded.'

Yet, here we are, 8 years later, and the economy is fucked. You can either say he got lucky, and there's no way he could have predicted this. Or you could say he was actually sly enough to know that if he rattled Bush jr.'s cage, that the resulting war and spending would do far more damage than the cost of three buildings.

As I said, it's hard to say. But it's certainly not as simple as saying bin Laden "failed."

standin
09-12-2009, 09:50 PM
No matter if it was to accomplish, insurance fraud, economic hit, "look at me I am scary" dance, or a half-assed plan that went freakish well, any ninny can use the elusive Laden as a "had to be him" cover.

Dead, alive, or imaginary the script calls for Laden to be the star of a funeral. Propagate that, see who comes next and the extent of their influence as a cult guidance. Cults don't usually go away, but they can be managed for the best aspects of the cult.

GAR
09-12-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't believe in Bin Laden, but I do believe the Wahabi Islamism that invented him is still around - fuck yeah - 3 trillion dollars flushed chasing sand in the wind.

Where the fuck is Bin Laden? Why haven't we wiretapped his family.. plundered their assets, fucked with Saudi Arabia some more?

I don't get it. I thought the one good thing about a different party in control of the government would be no allegiances preventing Bin Laden capture, as outlined in many many websites showing Bush business dealings

ZahZoo
09-14-2009, 12:28 PM
All I'm saying is that, at the time, bin Laden was saying in his videos was that his plan was to bring down the U.S. economy. At the time, people said, 'bullshit - the dow already rebounded.'

Yet, here we are, 8 years later, and the economy is fucked. You can either say he got lucky, and there's no way he could have predicted this. Or you could say he was actually sly enough to know that if he rattled Bush jr.'s cage, that the resulting war and spending would do far more damage than the cost of three buildings.

As I said, it's hard to say. But it's certainly not as simple as saying bin Laden "failed."

Today's economic issues have nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Indirectly you could grasp at straws and draw dotted lines.

But the fanatics that pulled this off were attacking the predominate symbol of Western Capitalism. That's a key point and major thing with the Islamic Idiots... they're big on symbolism, short on effect and clearly short on long term strategic thinking.

The bottom line on this thread and the original article is dead on... Bin Laden and gang thought that by making a big bang, the people they sought to line up and join them in this fight would be falling all over themselves to take on the evil imperialists. Didn't happen...

Now they've got Democracy, western values, culture and thinking camped right in the heart of the territory Al Qaeda sought to unite in their fight.

Rather than grow Islamic rule globally... they got just the opposite in spades on the home front.

That is clearly a failure... back-fired on them is more like it.