White And Conservative? Must Be A Racist

[BigBadBrian]

David Stokes

Writing about race and racism in America is always risky and potentially polarizing if you are—like me—a middle-aged white guy from the suburbs. So I am a little hesitant to weigh in with some observations about the current climate in America.

As a minister who leads a congregation composed of people from more than 30 nations (not descendants—first generation here), I have the opportunity to interact with wonderful people from around the world. I have learned much from them over the years about the challenges and hardships they have faced, both back in the old country, and trying to assimilate here and carve out their own niche of the American dream.

Being on the conservative side of all things political—with an emergent streak of libertarianism—I realize that this adds another strike against me when it comes to sharing (or in the view of some—even having) a reasonable and valid opinion on the subject of racism. Because I am a white man and a conservative, therefore I must be a racist.

Strike three is the fact that I did not vote for Barack Obama (though a significant number of my congregants surely did) and my opposition to his presidential policies has been unwavering. That seals the deal. Back to the dugout for me it is—I have no credibility. How dare I talk about this issue?

Yet, I am distressed by what I am seeing and hearing—distressed enough to speak up. As the Apostle Paul’s spirit was stirred in him while visiting Athens (Acts chapter 17) because of what he saw and heard (in that case, pervasive idolatry), my spirit is troubled because of what I see in America these days.

The problem in America is not racism. Sure, there are cases of enmity driven by bigoted ignorance, but the greatest prejudice in this country is the now systemic painting of those who oppose policy as racists—ipso facto. We have a new McCarthyism in the nation—one that paints with a broad brush. “Are you now, or have you ever been, a card-carrying racist?”

We are witnessing the “borking” of America. Robert Bork, of course, was Ronald Reagan’s nominee to the Supreme Court in 1987. He found himself the victim of an insidious smear campaign—that worked—and his name became a verb: "To defame or vilify (a person) systematically, esp. in the mass media.”

If you’re a white person and you don’t support Obamacare—you must be a bigot. If you think global warming is an overheated issue—it’s surely racially motivated. The same goes with what is happening now in Arizona. It must be racism driving all the “hate.” The 7 out of 10 citizens of Arizona who support the recently signed immigration law must be motivated by “hate.” That whole property, safety and not wanting to overtax an already cash-strapped state with financial burdens—well, that’s just a cover.

To hear some describe it (newspapers, blogs or any hour on MSNBC), racism is all over the place and there is no defense allowed if you are accused. It’s a charge that sticks. It’s also a charge that, to an extent, works. This is why playing the race card tends these days to be the first from the deck. It has a way of stopping further discussion. It’s a tried and true intimidator.

Martin Luther King Jr. famously said something about people not being judged by the “color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Amen! That statement rings so true. But what kind of character is represented when former ACORN president, Bertha Lewis, slanders the Tea Party movement as a “bowel movement” riddled with and motivated by “racism.” She was speaking, by the way to a group called the Young Democratic Socialists (the youth arm of the Democratic Socialists of America). Or for that matter, what kind of character was represented by the now discredited ACORN and their financial and moral bankruptcy?

It is disturbing to me that the historic election of the first black President of the United States has not led to a “post-racial” national experience, but rather it’s polarizing opposite. Are we moving toward a kind of country where speaking out and reasonable—even animated—opposition to policies and those who make them can be dismissed as merely racist and therefore irrelevant?

I do not support President Obama’s policies, but I am not a racist. I pray for the man (and other leaders) every day, by name, following the scriptural directive. I make sure to commend him when I can—for example, I thought his remarks at the memorial service for the West Virginia miners a week ago were excellent. He fulfilled one of his presidential duties—an extraordinarily difficult one (as any clergyman knows)—with grace and obvious compassion.

Mr. Obama loves his wife and children—they are truly a beautiful family. So, when I disagree with what he stands for politically I am not “hating” a man, or his “race,” I am simply exercising my rights as a citizen. But it is now clear that we have entered into a part of our national narrative, one that at first promised to be “post-racial,” that is becoming “most-racial.” The president has recently made a video for the Democratic National Committee appealing directly to (his words) "young people, African-Americans, Latinos and women,” in an effort to mobilize people to vote for his party in 2010.

How is that “post-racial?”

I implore all those on the other side of the political spectrum from today’s conservatives to resist the temptation to throw the racist flag when all that is happening is that some are voicing their disagreements to policies, the very way many of you did when George W. Bush was in office. It’s quintessentially American to disagree and speak out.

I recently heard a clergyman—someone I know and respect but strongly disagree with in this case—suggest that what Christians need to do these days is to “obey the powers that be.” This is, of course, Paul’s admonition from Romans 13 and it means that we are to be law-abiding citizens. However, the minister was using the text as a “proof text”—suggesting that speaking out or criticizing our current national leaders and their policies is a violation of scripture. Interestingly, I am not sure that text and argument were rolled out 5 years ago, but I digress.

What that clergyman—and some Americans—miss is that the “powers that be” in this nation are not merely governmental (though they are, in part), but reside ultimately in “We The People.” And we have a right to criticize and oppose and should be able to do so without heavy-handed “theologies” and broad-brush smears of racism.
http://townhall.com/columnists/DavidStokes/2010/05/02/white_and_conservative__must_be_a_racist?page=full&comments=true

[BigBadBrian]

If you’re a white person and you don’t support Obamacare—you must be a bigot. If you think global warming is an overheated issue—it’s surely racially motivated. The same goes with what is happening now in Arizona. It must be racism driving all the “hate.” The 7 out of 10 citizens of Arizona who support the recently signed immigration law must be motivated by “hate.” That whole property, safety and not wanting to overtax an already cash-strapped state with financial burdens—well, that’s just a cover.


It's usually the only argument Democrats can think of. Pitiful, really. I guess this Tea Party guy is a racist also.

http://www.geaugaconstitutionalcouncil.org/userfiles/image/Obama_Dissenter_0(1).JPG

[kwame k]

Tea bagger's aren't racist.........just horrible spellers :biggrin:

[sadaist]

It's usually the only argument Democrats can think of.


I welcome it. In the last two years the term has lost a lot of its sting. The more they just randomly throw it out there where it doesn't belong, the more value it loses. If they keep it up, it will be like the word "bitch" on network television. When it was first used on a Designing Women episode, I remember the uproar about cursing & obscenities on television. TV Guide among many other publications had big stories about it. But it's been overused so much that most people probably don't even notice it in their favorite shows anymore. That's what is happening to the term "racist".

Anyone remember the South Park episode about the word "shit"?

The moral of the story is not that saying "shit" is wrong, per se, but saying it in excess leads to boredom with the word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Hits_the_Fan

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[sadaist]

Tea bagger's aren't racist..........just horrible spellers

Hmmm. Anyone want to wager how long he stands behind this statement? I'll take two days for $1.

PS - That apostrophe doesn't belong there Kwame (bagger's), and you forgot a period at the end of the sentence.

[kwame k]

Can't take a joke, Sadie?

Lighten up!

[sadaist]

Lighten up!


Am I too dark for you? Racist.

[ELVIS]

This is an interesting piece, actually. I've read it twice and had a different reaction after each reading. It'd be even more interesting if it were published on a non-right-wing site. Or perhaps Mr. Stokes was too "intimidated" by feedback from a non-white-male-conservative readership?
[/COLOR]

What site would you have preferred ??

BTW, I doubt Minister Stokes is very easily intimidated...


:elvis:

[BigBadBrian]

Tea bagger's aren't racist.........just horrible spellers :biggrin:

You criticized a black man...you're a racist!!! :Loser:

[BigBadBrian]

This is an interesting piece, actually. I've read it twice and had a different reaction after each reading. It'd be even more interesting if it were published on a non-right-wing site. Or perhaps Mr. Stokes was too "intimidated" by feedback from a non-white-male-conservative readership?



I seriously doubt any "non-right-wing sites" would have the balls to post such a truthful op-ed like this one.

[BigBadBrian]

Hold up. An Op-Ed is an opinion piece. "A truthful op-ed?" Are you saying opinion = fact?

yes, they can be, as this one is.


And why would one need balls to publish something that's "truthful?"

There's alot of truth that isn't published in the State-Run Media (MSNBC, CNN, NYT, etc.).

[jhale667]

truthful op-ed


:rolleyes:

[chefcraig]

When you think about it, every group out there, be they political, religious, following a sports team or (God forbid) chasing after a rock band has members that tend to take their devotion to the extreme. If you speak critically of, question the motives of or feel some dissent toward the particular subject, you are a heretic. There are some that believe a person questioning the actions of Israel must be antisemitic, as with those that do not quite grasp the apparent contradictions of radical Muslims simply must be God-less. If you find fault with South American governments, you are an imperialist, and of course in this country there is always the idea that someone is a racist if they happen to be white and discussing other non-white members of the populace.

It's just so damned childish at this point. People today seem to be walking around with a giant chip on their shoulder, just waiting to be offended by just about anything. Their is a weird sense of not only entitlement at work here, but also an astoundingly perverse attitude of political correctness that goes with it, as if society itself will collapse if anyone from outside a group should offer an opinion about said group. Crap, where and when did folks begin to get so damned thin-skinned and objectionable? If the generations that came before were as prickly and sensitive to every little thing, the industrial revolution never would have occurred, and chances are we'd all still be shitting outdoors. The concept of forward movement never would have been conceived, but then again, we wouldn't have as much to regress from, which appears to be the case of society currently.

Every time some professionally indignant nitwit opens his mouth and points a finger of blame at another individual, it's sets all of us as a society back another 5 years. At the current rate of this occurring, we won't have to worry about the end of the world in 2012, because by calendar date we are never going to get there.

[hambon4lif]

When you think about it, every group out there, be they political, religious, following a sports team or (God forbid) chasing after a rock band has members that tend to take their devotion to the extreme.
Every time some professionally indignant nitwit opens his mouth and points a finger of blame at another individual, it's sets all of us as a society back another 5 years. At the current rate of this occurring, we won't have to worry about the end of the world in 2012, because by calendar date we are never going to get there.....God willing!:beers8:

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[WACF]

This playing the race card, a "tried and true intimidator," as Mr. Stokes calls it goes both ways. Whenever a minority protests a racist act a white person has perpetrated, s/he is called names or is told there was no racial motive behind the act. Ever read a book entitled Between Barack And A Hard Place: Racism And White Denial In The Age of Obama?

The racism card has been so overplayed it is starting to not mean anything.

As a white 40 something Conservative (Canadian version) male I am tired of always....and I do mean always hearing the racism angle.

When a minority commits a crime against someone else it is never called racism here....but when ever a white commits a crime and the victim was a minority...holy hell all you hear is it was racism. When the police or courts try and deal with criminals...and they actually get a sentence...and the criminal is not white...once again the media runs with the family crying racism against their people.

Never just some jackass commiting a crime.

Why...can we not just be equal and happy about it.

The law states we are....how about we start acting like it and media should stop playing it for the drama.

[Blackflag]

The racism card has been so overplayed it is starting to not mean anything.

What a racist thing to say.

[kwame k]

Really isn't all violent crime, a hate crime?

Can you love the person you're beating the fuck out of..........my bad, you can! Spousal abuse......

What if a couple is of mixed race and they beat each other up but still love each other?

Is that a hate crime ;)

[knuckleboner]

anybody who thinks that any significant portion of obama supporters claim that all or most opponents are racist is either a fool, or playing the race card as an attention whore. (after all, not too many people have labeled john boehner a racist, and he's probably obama's biggest critic.)

this columnist, without ANY supporting evidence, could be either.

[kwame k]

I used to love The Jeffersons :beers8:

[WACF]

If it is starting to lose its meaning, then why should it bother you to hear the racism angle? Let people say what they want.



Huh? What are you saying here? The criminal is white; then the criminal is not white and the family cries racism?

Recently, a white teenager from Long Island was convicted of killing a Latino man, but he was acquitted of one of the most serious charges against him: murder with a racial motive, a hate crime. One of the jurors interviewed said that the key was that the teen and his friends had said the night in question they were set out to "beat up some Mexican guys" not "kill some Mexican guys." A hate crime is still a hate crime, whether the victim ended up dead or not (or does the law distinguish between death by a hate crime and injured by a hate crime?). The family and supporters of the family of the victim surely are justified in calling this a violent racist act, don't you think?



If only that were true. Sadly, I don't see it happening even if I live to be 125.


Your example is more of the extreme where it is for sure a hate crime...and family can say what they want of course.

But....why is a racially motivated act worth more time than just a violent crime because you do not like the look of someone...or they have what you want...I thought we were supposed to be equal.

Murder is murder.

[sadaist]

I used to love The Jeffersons :beers8:

Used to? Thanks to Nick At Nite, DVR's, and the Internet you still can. Time to "move on up" from that old antennae television Kwame. ;)

The bi-racial couple, isn't the wife Lenny Kravitz's mom? I swear I have heard that before. Lenny is fucking cool.

[FORD]

Used to? Thanks to Nick At Nite, DVR's, and the Internet you still can. Time to "move on up" from that old antennae television Kwame. ;)

The bi-racial couple, isn't the wife Lenny Kravitz's mom? I swear I have heard that before. Lenny is fucking cool.

Yep. She was married to a white guy in real life too.

And I think the Jeffersons still air on the "TV One" channel. It seems to be primarily an African American channel, but that includes a lot of the old 70's sitcoms. Sanford & Son, Good Times, etc. One of the few channels I still get in my non-official cable lineup.

[GAR]

Yep. She was married to a white guy in real life too.

YEAH Fuck Whitey! Literally.. down with The Man. On the Bed, beiouiyatch..

[BigBadBrian]

this columnist, without ANY supporting evidence, could be either.

You need to open your eyes and ears to the State-Run Media...and columnists in the NYT, WashPo, etc.

[Seshmeister]

I don't know if this bozo is racist or not but he's definitely not a Christian.

[BigBadBrian]

Why is a racially-motivated act worth more time than a regular violent crime, you ask? [/COLOR]

It's not. All it does is indict one race and victimize another.

[ELVIS]

I don't know if this bozo is racist or not but he's definitely not a Christian.

I think he is...

[Nickdfresh]

Hold up. An Op-Ed is an opinion piece. "A truthful op-ed?" Are you saying opinion = fact?

And I don't see why one needs chutzpah to publish something if it were the truth...

You have to forgive Big Bland Brian's Cryin.'

If somebody didn't write his opinion for him, he wouldn't know what to think...

[Nickdfresh]

...
The bi-racial couple, isn't the wife Lenny Kravitz's mom? I swear I have heard that before. Lenny is fucking cool.

Yup. I know his father was white and Jewish (not the TV husband) and his mother was indeed the actress Roxie Roker. I believe she passed away a few years back...

edit*

After reading her Wiki page, I now recall she died almost at the height of Kravitz's commercial success in 1995:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxie_Roker

[jhale667]

I think he is...

Of course you do...

[ELVIS]

It's funny how the non-Christians think they can identify a Christian more accurately than a fellow Christian can...

Pastor David Stokes seems to me to be the real deal...

[jhale667]

It's funny how the non-Christians think they can identify a Christian more accurately than a fellow Christian can...

Pastor David Stokes seems to me to be the real deal...

Look, just because you went to Bible-study to learn to be more judgmental doesn't necessarily mean you're a better Christian (or can spot them easier) than anyone else..

[Seshmeister]

It's funny how the non-Christians think they can identify a Christian more accurately than a fellow Christian can...

Pastor David Stokes seems to me to be the real deal...

I think the distinction is between following the teachings of Jesus as laid out in the bible and the weird warped religions that have grown up using the Jesus as a smokescreen.

The Jesus stories are full of his ideas on money, it's one of the main things he supposedly talked about. How this guy can set himself up as a religious leader and ignore all that is quite pathetic?

Jesus Christ the Republican moneterist. It's laughable.

[LoungeMachine]

It's funny how the non-Christians think they can identify a Christian more accurately than a fellow Christian can...

Pastor David Stokes seems to me to be the real deal...


Fellow Christian?

Doesn't "Christian" mean one follows the teachings of Christ?

If so, you're no Christian from what I've read on these boards over the last 6 years.

:gulp:

Not by any stretch

[ELVIS]

I'm not a Christian because I like to post things on this message board ??

[jhale667]

I'm not a Christian because I like to post things on this message board ??

You post things that DEMONSTRATE you're not a Christian on this board was the point, if I'm not mistaken...:rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not a Christian because I like to post things on this message board ??

No. You come across as a completely unselfconscious and fake one because you post nasty, deluded trash that would make Ayn Rand blush...

[ELVIS]

I'm a free man in Christ and I am also free to exercise my freedom of speech without being PC just because current trends tell me to do so...

Also, I have never been malicious with my posts. I have posted plenty off off-the-wall ideas and certain unpopular words with the sole intent of pissing you queers off and making the non-queers smile...


:biggrin:

[Blaze]

You are such a fancy in your footsteps, Elvis. ~`~

[ELVIS]

is that good or bad ??

[Seshmeister]

The guy is a right wing libertarian.

How could anyone claim that Jesus if he came(back) to Earth would want to go around shutting down public schools ending education for the poor and taking away anything where the community through taxes has come together to help the poor by giving them healthcare or welfare?

You think he's a good Christian, explain that.

It just shows how ludicrous the whole superstition industry has got.

[chefcraig]

It just shows how ludicrous the whole superstition industry has got.

"Has got"? There isn't a single mention of Jesus Christ in any secular Greek, Roman or Jewish historical account. Not one reference in any piece of surviving literature, other than the New Testament. That's it. So if Jesus existed at all, he did his deeds in the obscurity of Judea. Yet somehow, he now is worshiped by millions. I'd say his PR department has been in overdrive for a few hundred years now.

[ELVIS]

How is giving welfare christian or not ??

Explain that...


:elvis:

[Jesus Christ]

Do ye love Me, Gregory?

[binnie]

How is giving welfare christian or not ??

Explain that...


:elvis:

Isn't being charitable one of the key elements of being a Christian?

[Blackflag]

I love people who reject religion - then start preaching when they think they can leverage it to get the government to steal a few bucks for them.

[binnie]

I don't 'reject' religion. I'm agnositc, if anything.

I'm just generally interested in the notion that Jesus would have been anti-welfare.

[ELVIS]

Isn't being charitable one of the key elements of being a Christian?

Sure it is, but does big brother have to be the middle man ??

[ELVIS]

oops...

[Blackflag]

Yeah, I'm sure He would have been all for fascist governments taking people's money to spend as they see fit. He was very pro-establishment, I hear.

[ELVIS]

I'm just generally interested in the notion that Jesus would have been anti-welfare.

Of course he would have been and he still is...

[binnie]

Sure it is, but does big brother have to be the middle man ??

No, the government doesn't have to be the middle man. However, if a given society is rife with inequalities and the individuals in that society are not doing enough to rectify those inequalities isn't it only 'Christian' of the government to help redistribute wealth?

Would Christ have been comfortable with the idea of billionaires? And when people ask 'why should I pay for you?' would he not have asked 'why would you not want to pay for the less fortunate?'

[ELVIS]

Redistribute wealth ??

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Would Christ have been comfortable with the idea of billionaires? And when people ask 'why should I pay for you?' would he not have asked 'why would you not want to pay for the less fortunate?'

no, he said "give ten percent of everything you have to the church". and the church would care for them.

[Jesus Christ]

Do ye love Me, Gregory?

[Blackflag]

I wonder if Ford is one of those people that makes money off the tax system.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4367401733_b9d317fd87.jpg

[ELVIS]

Of course he is, and yes FORD, I love you...

[Jesus Christ]

FORD is not a "defense" contractor, My son.

[Jesus Christ]

Of course he is, and yes LORD, I love you...

If ye love Me Gregory, then feed My sheep.

[Blackflag]

I'll take it that's a "yes." :hee:

Get off your lazy ass and get a job, fucker.

[Seshmeister]

Redistribute wealth ??

You should read Acts.

It's like a communist manifesto.

[Jesus Christ]

I'll take it that's a "yes." :hee:

Get off your lazy ass and get a job, fucker.

Art thou addressing such comments to Me?

For I hath many jobs:

Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, Lord, Savior, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of the Jews, the Great Physician, etc.

[Blackflag]

Art thou addressing such comments to Me?

For I hath many jobs:

Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, Lord, Savior, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of the Jews, the Great Physician, etc.


Ford, wouldn't He want you to be one of the people who is out feeding people - rather than sitting on your fat, cunty ass waiting for somebody to feed you?

[Jesus Christ]

You should read Acts.

It's like a communist manifesto.

Is it not ironic that a self proclaimed non believer such as thyself knoweth scripture better than many of those who claim to believeth in Me?

Keep talking like this, Sesh, and ye might be the first atheist to make it into Heaven :jesuslol:

[Jesus Christ]

Ford, wouldn't He want you to be one of the people who is out feeding people - rather than sitting on your fat, cunty ass waiting for somebody to feed you?

Judge not Pibbles, lest ye be judged. For who are ye to condemn FORD when thou art in Yakima, a place where even Pharisees fear to tread?

[ELVIS]

Keep talking like this, Sesh, and ye might be the first atheist to make it into Heaven :jesuslol:

Talk will never get anyone into heaven...

[Blackflag]

And who are you to preach when you contribute nothing to society, and only take from it? Lazy cunt.

[Blaze]

Hold up
I am the Fire Rock, youthful leader from God!
I want some of the lovin' :D

[ELVIS]

Yakima, a place where even Pharisees fear to tread?

No catholics in Yakima ??

[Blackflag]

No catholics in Yakima ??

The Catholics own Yakima. Just Ford talking out of his ass, as usual.

[jhale667]

Is it not ironic that a self proclaimed non believer such as thyself knoweth scripture better than many of those who claim to believeth in Me?

Ain't that the truth...dude knows more than all the zealots that post here combined.


Keep talking like this, Sesh, and ye might be the first atheist to make it into Heaven :jesuslol:

Is that like the atheistic equivalent to Affirmative Action? "Well, we had to let one in, and since he knows the playbook pretty well..." :D

[jhale667]

Talk will never get anyone into heaven...

Neither will your hating on other religions, bigotry...fun stuff like that....

[Jesus Christ]

Talk will never get anyone into heaven...

Who would ye rather be on judgment day, Gregory....

A non believer who knows My teachings. Or a hypocrite who claims to follow Me, but does the opposite of My teachings?

Verily I say unto you that at least the atheist will have the defense of his doubts. Not saying that will win the verdict, but as I hath said in the 25th chapter of Matthew's gospel, many who claim to follow Me will be in for one Hell of a surprise on that day. (pun intended)

[Seshmeister]

I'm too rich to get into heaven according to the Jesus story anyway. :)

I also have no intention of giving all my money to the poor, just my taxes.

[Jesus Christ]

I'm too rich to get into heaven according to the Jesus story anyway. :)

I also have no intention of giving all my money to the poor, just my taxes.

Then I suggest ye use some of thy money to buy a camel, and train him to walk through the eye of a needle :jesuslol:

[PETE'S BROTHER]

a really big fuckin' needle

[Blackflag]

I guess it's easier to play Messiah on the internet all day and bitch that the government doesn't collect enough taxes for your welfare check, than to just go get a fucking job.

I wonder what Ford's going to do when he gets to heaven and finds the BCE there.

[ELVIS]

Who would ye rather be on judgment day, Gregory....

A non believer who knows My teachings. Or a hypocrite who claims to follow Me, but does the opposite of My teachings?



Neither...

[jhale667]

Neither...

Sure, you'd prefer to be neither, but what's your plan since you clearly fall into the latter category? :lol:

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Sure, you'd prefer to be neither, but what's your plan since you clearly fall into the latter category? :lol:

yeah, sumthin' about pullin' a stick out of your eye.

[knuckleboner]

You need to open your eyes and ears to the State-Run Media...and columnists in the NYT, WashPo, etc.

trust me, i have.

like i said, many prominent people have made opposition to various parts of obama’s agenda. they don’t get called racist by any but a few commentators, who, like limbaugh and beck, care less about the truth than they do about being attention whores.

was carter wrong for calling joe wilson’s cry racist? eh, i disagree with jimmy. but i see the point. southern white congressman yells at black president. anybody who says “that must be racist,” is wrong. anybody who says “it could be racist,” well, fair enough. though, again, i don’t think it was, nor would i have probably questioned it on a racial basis.

but, how many editorials questioning the constitutionality of the individual mandate have been called racist? how many claiming the stimulus funding has done little to create new jobs have been labeled racist? answer, not many.

unless of course they also say things like, “he’s not my president.” or, “barrack HUSSEIN obama,” etc. those aren’t inherently racist. but i can tell you that if a conservative white Christian thows those kinds of things into the mix when opposing policies, or more, simply opposing that “nazi socialist,” then yes, i’m going to start questioning their arguments.

[Blaze]

I'm too rich to get into heaven according to the Jesus story anyway. :)

I also have no intention of giving all my money to the poor, just my taxes.
http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/image7.jpg

Oh, well let me introduce you to the Peaceful system.


A 2.5% flat rate is the tax is bestowed upon accepting Peace exists.
If you choose not to accept Peace exists, your tax rate is based off of whatever belief system or the standard 2.5%, which ever is higher.
There is no interest applied to any loans, flat fees is the only legal option.
That is the Peaceful financial system.

[jhale667]

I'm actually astonished ELVIS didn't go for the "Satan can quote scripture better than most" reference...he's slipping. :hee:

[Guitar Shark]

http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/image7.jpg

Oh, well let me introduce you to the Peaceful taxation.


A 2% flat rate is the tax is bestowed upon accepting Peace exists.
If you choose not to accept Peace exists, your tax rate is based off of whatever belief system or the standard 2% which ever is higher.
There is no interest applied to any loans, flat fees is the only legal option.
That is the Peaceful financial system.

Please start taking your meds again.

[Blaze]

Please start taking your meds again.

What you dislike 2% of your yearly total wealth as billing standard?
And have issue with a flat money fee?
I suspect you are of the charlatanism.

[Blaze]

Or excuse me for being so rude, Perhaps you do not believe in Peacefulness.
You are welcome to your beliefs. :)

[Guitar Shark]

Thank you for your permission. I believe that you are a nutjob.

[chefcraig]

I suspect you are of the charlatanism.

Do you speak like this in real life, and if so, how did you get used to all of the quizzical expressions coming your way?

[Blackflag]

:confused13:

[Blaze]

I am amused at who is stepping forward.

[Jesus Christ]

I guess it's easier to play Messiah on the internet all day and bitch that the government doesn't collect enough taxes for your welfare check, than to just go get a fucking job.

I wonder what Ford's going to do when he gets to heaven and finds the BCE there.

The BCE are murderers, liars and blasphemers. I assure you, they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Blackflag]

I thought you said we weren't supposed to judge, Ford? Are you a hypocrite, or just fucking stupid?


Judge not Pibbles, lest ye be judged.

[Jesus Christ]

I am THE Judge :cool:

[Blackflag]

I guess that's the latter...

[Jesus Christ]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10

What part of that do ye not understand?

[LoungeMachine]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10

What part of that do ye not understand?

Did Jesus insist on fine Corinthian leather, like Ricardo Montobaum?

:gulp:

[Jesus Christ]

Did Jesus insist on fine Corinthian leather, like Ricardo Montobaum?

:gulp:

One of the cool things about being the Son of God, is that I can get anything in Corinthian leather, and need not even kill any cows to do so. :jesuslol:

[chefcraig]

I thought Corinthian Leather was an advertising term for Naugahyde? http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-confused-smileys-718.gif (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/Free-Sick-Smileys/)

[Jesus Christ]

That may be how Chrysler did it, but verily it is not how Christ rolls :cool:

[LoungeMachine]

Christler don't play that.

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/image7.jpg

Oh, well let me introduce you to the Peaceful system.


A 2.5% flat rate is the tax is bestowed upon accepting Peace exists.
If you choose not to accept Peace exists, your tax rate is based off of whatever belief system or the standard 2.5%, which ever is higher.
There is no interest applied to any loans, flat fees is the only legal option.
That is the Peaceful financial system.

Unfortunately here on planet Earth 2.5% won't be enough to pay for the social services, education, roads and healthcare I want.

Even worse I feel a bit short of cash this month so I'm going to choose not to accept peace exists and instead choose to accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster this year because being a human I am a hypocrite and a bit crap so need to be coerced a bit to pay taxes for the good.

[Blaze]

:biggrin:
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[Seshmeister]

Did Jesus insist on fine Corinthian leather, like Ricardo Montobaum?

:gulp:

I think it's included under the section 'Bits the church added later to justify 2000 years of living in luxury'.

Like the parable of 'Fuck the Poor and give me your money' which doesn't seem to fit with most of the rest.


John 12:1-11
Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. There a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, "Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages."
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. "It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me." Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him. (NIV)

[Blackflag]

Even worse I feel a bit short of cash this month so I'm going to choose not to accept peace exists and instead choose to accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster this year because being a human I am a hypocrite and a bit crap so need to be coerced a bit to pay taxes for the good.

It's wry wit like that that brought us Benny Hill and Mr. Bean.

[Seshmeister]

I did hear that they were hugely popular in the US.

Benny Hill hasn't been shown here since the early 80s, it was deemed crass and sexist.

[Blaze]

Unfortunately here on planet Earth 2.5% won't be enough to pay for the social services, education, roads and healthcare I want.

Even worse I feel a bit short of cash this month so I'm going to choose not to accept peace exists and instead choose to accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster this year because being a human I am a hypocrite and a bit crap so need to be coerced a bit to pay taxes for the good.

Still a base of 2.5 accepting or not,

Do you really think 2.5 % of Earth's total monetary wealth yearly is not enough? I am just joshing, but surly 2.5% glean of world assets would ... well to be honest, I never though of this in a world fashion. Seems just getting Suade to cover their 2.5 with the world would be a huge difference.

[Blackflag]

You heard wrong.

[Blaze]

I wonder what the world gross product is, now that you mentioned it.

[Blaze]

I am not fond of monetary things, monetary systems seems so arbitrary.

[Blaze]

How does one measure the production value of a planetary system. :umm:

[kwame k]

There's a Gross World Product...........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

A World Gross Product???? Gotta imagine aborted fetuses are pretty gross :umm:

[Blackflag]

:uck:

[Blaze]

There's a Gross World Product...........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

A World Gross Product???? Gotta imagine aborted fetuses are pretty gross :umm:

4200 Per capita, even in America is significant.

[kwame k]

Sure, if it was 4,200 beers on the wall.......

[Ally_Kat]

Art thou addressing such comments to Me?

For I hath many jobs:

Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, Lord, Savior, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of the Jews, the Great Physician, etc.

Hey JC! Why, yes, you did have many jobs. One of them was as a carpenter. You didn't spent all your days traveling around. You actually had a business and a house and tools and Judas was your accountant. You had an accountant because you paid taxes...on the income you earned from your business. Your accountant stole from your finances. It's in your book. Surprised it's not mentioned more often.

It's also in your book how you and your buds helped the poor with contributions given by followers (funnily enough those funds were NOT handled by Judas). The Luke community tends to emphasize the womenfolk doing this, but I don't need to tell you that that's because they were dealing with a lot of issues in the women being abused and killed arena. Other books tend to even out the gender participation.

And hey - while I have your attention and we're talking about money -- how come people are so quick to point out every other contradiction in the Bible, but they shy away from the money contradiction? You tended to the poor during the day, but you ate dinners with the wealthy at night. You tell some wealthy people to give up all they have to the poor, but you tell other wealthy people to keep their money for their families...several times and all within verses of each other! It seems to be that the wealthy people who made no charitable contributions with money or time were told to give up everything, but those that were wealthy and did spend some sort helping where told to keep their riches. And why does no one talk about how you didn't want the government to be in charge of charity because you can't trust a government to do it and that charity was suppose to be by the followers on their own accord (with free will!) because they were the ones who would best take care of your flock?

[Seshmeister]

Nice but you are kidding yourself.

Firstly in the primative times that Jesus was meant to be wandering around you can't compare the government structures to the ones of today. A huge corrupt imperial army occupying a country and milking it.

Actually maybe not a great example given Iraq. :)

Apart from a few notable exceptions like Gates charitable giving is irrelevant compared to government pooling resources to give. For example Bob Geldof said that he got more money from a 15 minute meeting with the French president than all of the years of Band Aid/Live Aid combined.

Ironically Bush was able to give huge amounts of money to Africa.

Basically what you are saying is that it is better for you to give money to the church who then use it to pay the lawyers in their pedophilia cases than for everyone to pay a little more into a central pot which is used to provide proper healthcare your poor neighbors who at present are dying in their tens of thousands because of a lack of it.

The money they don't spend on pedophilia is then used to spread wicked dogma. We'll feed you if you become future customers. We'll give you medicine if you attend classes where we tell you not to use contraception meaning you are over populated and Aids ridden, perfect breeding ground for a death cult.

[ELVIS]

Cut the catholicism out and she's correct...:)

[Seshmeister]

So you are saying all christians were wrong for the first 1600 years but a minority of them are right now?

[ELVIS]

No, but how were they wrong for 1600 years ??

If you're talking about catholics, yes, they evolved into something very much like pharisees in my opinion...

[Seshmeister]

You seem to think catholicism is wrong and that's all there used to be.

In fact christians could get a bit stressed about that and set you on fire if you didn't agree.

[ELVIS]

Well, I'm in agreement with Martin Luther...

[Seshmeister]

Well I'm very surprised that you post at a Jewish singers website then.

[jhale667]

Well I'm very surprised that you post at a Jewish singers website then.

One of the many contradictions that is ELVIS. :rolleyes:

I'm sure Ally will be back to kick your ass about your (fairly idiotic) Catholicism B.S., Greg - so I won't bother - but what exactly (besides the obvious kid-diddling issue) makes you think YOUR brand of snake-oil is somehow superior to any other Christian faith, pray tell?

[ELVIS]

My "brand" is non-denominational Bible based Christianity and I'm not saying it's superior to anything...

But what I do know is that aligning myself (so to speak) to the discipline, integrity, daily habits (including Bible study and prayer) and the truth, which I believe is Jesus and the word of God, has delivered me from addictions and most other forms of selfishness. It has also provided me with a foundation on which I'm building a very happy and fulfilling life that gets better every day. Faith in God and Jesus puts me and my soon-to-be wife on the same page and we have the same dreams and desires with a real vision...


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

So basically you are saying that anal takes your mind of how much you miss the fun of booze?

[ELVIS]

Hardy har har har...:biggrin:

[jhale667]

So basically you are saying that anal takes your mind of how much you miss the fun of booze?

Wait, is that the "dreams and desires" part they're on the same page on he's talking about? :hee:

[Seshmeister]

I assumed so.

Just a polite way of putting it? :)

[ELVIS]

BTW, I don't miss booze at all...

[BigBadBrian]

Fellow Christian?

Doesn't "Christian" mean one follows the teachings of Christ?

If so, you're no Christian from what I've read on these boards over the last 6 years.



So how should he be acting? What's wrong? His language? His being on a rocki-n-roll message board? His political leanings?

Let's get your take on how a Christian should act.

[ELVIS]

Exactly...

[binnie]

Well, I'm in agreement with Martin Luther...

I imagine you're a little closer to John Calvin or Ulrich Zwingli. Luther's legacy on Protestantism is actually over-shadowed by those two, especially doctrinally....

[binnie]

I would like to make it plain that I have at no point accused anyone of not being Christian....

[PETE'S BROTHER]

I imagine you're a little closer to John Calvin or Ulrich Zwingli. Luther's legacy on Protestantism is actually over-shadowed by those two, especially doctrinally....

my parents were members of a christian reformed church, based on calvin.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

my parents were members of a christian reformed church, based on calvin.

well, not physically on calvin, but his "teachings":baaa:

[Blackflag]

The kid with the tiger? That's weird, but who am I to judge.

[Seshmeister]

Was he the tiger? I always get that mixed up.

[ELVIS]

I imagine you're a little closer to John Calvin or Ulrich Zwingli. Luther's legacy on Protestantism is actually over-shadowed by those two, especially doctrinally....

Correct, but my points are all the same, regardless...

But tanx!

[Blackflag]

No, that was Hobbes.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

great cartoon

[Jagermeister]

Race is a more popular topic here than music.

Awesome thread!

[Seshmeister]

We did Van Halen music in every conceivable way for about 6 years and then completely ran out of ideas.

[chefcraig]

We did Van Halen music in every conceivable way for about 6 years and then completely ran out of ideas.

Coincidentally, so did the band.

[ELVIS]

What band ??

[Hardrock69]

Art thou addressing such comments to Me?

For I hath many jobs:

Son of God, Son of man, Messiah, Lord, Savior, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of the Jews, the Great Physician, etc.

Hypocrite, Unemployed Wino, Liar, Fictitious Character.....shall I go on? :hee:

[Hardrock69]

Did Jesus insist on fine Corinthian leather, like Ricardo Montobaum?

:gulp:
:lol:

[Hardrock69]

Well, I'm in agreement with Martin Luther...

Only thing about Martin Luther was that he was objecting to the Catholic Church's doctrine, which was based on a Fairy Tale. His opinion was that HIS Fairy Tale was much superior.

Sorta like saying "Little Red Riding Hood" was superior to "Cinderella", ignoring the fact that both are works of fiction.

But in his case he was saying his version of the same Fairy Tale was better.

Sorta like instead of the Catholic Church saying Cinderella married Prince Charming and lived happily ever after, Martin Luther was saying that she blew Prince Charming, got him high on some ancient Lebanese blond hash, then begged him to ass-rape her repeatedly, which he did, all the while listening to Davidius Leonus Rothia kick out the jams with Educius Vanhalenitius on a golden harp. Then, she brought around her seven sisters, and for forty days and forty nights they let Prince Charming fuck the living shit out of them, after which they held a massive party for the entire Kingdom, where everyone ate the best food, drank the best wine, smoked the best hash, and everyone got laid. THEN they got married and lived happily ever after in Switzerland, in a castle full of servants, with 40 sports cars, satellite TV and all the blow and hash they ever wanted.

Now THAT is a MUCH superior Fairy Tale. :biggrin:

And it is just as believable as the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. :hee:

[chefcraig]

Sorta like instead of the Catholic Church saying Cinderella married Prince Charming and lived happily ever after, Martin Luther was saying that she blew Prince Charming, got him high on some ancient Lebanese blond hash, then begged him to ass-rape her repeatedly, which he did, all the while listening to Davidius Leonus Rothia kick out the jams with Educius Vanhalenitius on a golden harp. Then, she brought around her seven sisters, and for forty days and forty nights they let Prince Charming fuck the living shit out of them, after which they held a massive party for the entire Kingdom, where everyone ate the best food, drank the best wine, smoked the best hash, and everyone got laid. THEN they got married and lived happily ever after in Switzerland, in a castle full of servants, with 40 sports cars, satellite TV and all the blow and hash they ever wanted.

Damn it, Hardrock...if you are going to spell out the entire plotline for the upcoming (and final) Shrek film, how's about a spoiler alert?

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Only thing about Martin Luther was that he was objecting to the Catholic Church's doctrine, which was based on a Fairy Tale. His opinion was that HIS Fairy Tale was much superior.

Sorta like saying "Little Red Riding Hood" was superior to "Cinderella", ignoring the fact that both are works of fiction.

But in his case he was saying his version of the same Fairy Tale was better.

Sorta like instead of the Catholic Church saying Cinderella married Prince Charming and lived happily ever after, Martin Luther was saying that she blew Prince Charming, got him high on some ancient Lebanese blond hash, then begged him to ass-rape her repeatedly, which he did, all the while listening to Davidius Leonus Rothia kick out the jams with Educius Vanhalenitius on a golden harp. Then, she brought around her seven sisters, and for forty days and forty nights they let Prince Charming fuck the living shit out of them, after which they held a massive party for the entire Kingdom, where everyone ate the best food, drank the best wine, smoked the best hash, and everyone got laid. THEN they got married and lived happily ever after in Switzerland, in a castle full of servants, with 40 sports cars, satellite TV and all the blow and hash they ever wanted.

Now THAT is a MUCH superior Fairy Tale. :biggrin:

:

that's the motherfuckin' church i'm joinin', right fuckin' there.:baaa::hitch:

[Hardrock69]

Damn it, Hardrock...if you are going to spell out the entire plotline for the upcoming (and final) Shrek film, how's about a spoiler alert?

Oops! My bad. Sorry, I am not allowed to edit my own post! :hee:

[Seshmeister]

Only thing about Martin Luther was that he was objecting to the Catholic Church's doctrine, which was based on a Fairy Tale. His opinion was that HIS Fairy Tale was much superior.


He was also a total antisemite who wanted Jewish people to be attacked and thrown out their homes to such an extent that his teachings inspired and were used by the Nazi's.

I don't think Elvis knew that when he said he agreed with Luther but that just shows again the point that people jump onto these superstitious band wagons without questioning where they come from.

[bueno bob]

He was also a total antisemite who wanted Jewish people to be attacked and thrown out their homes to such an extent that his teachings inspired and were used by the Nazi's.

I don't think Elvis knew that when he said he agreed with Luther but that just shows again the point that people jump onto these superstitious band wagons without questioning where they come from.

:appl:

[Hardrock69]

Consider also, just as an irrelevant reference point, that the very first 'Cinderella' fairy tale known was written by the Greek historian Strabo in the First Century B.C.

[chefcraig]

Consider also, just as an irrelevant reference point, that the very first 'Cinderella' fairy tale known was written by the Greek historian Strabo in the First Century B.C.

Funny you should mention that. I'm currently reading The Alexandria Link, by Steve Berry. The plot has to do with the idea that the Holy Land claimed by the Jews in Palestine in 1948 was in fact the wrong territory, and should have been marked hundreds of miles south in Saudi Arabia. The mistake stems from the Roman Strabo's observations in his "book" Histories. The Greek Herodotus' observations seem to contradict Strabo, but the problem is the stories were written nearly 400 years apart. Further muddying the waters is the idea that the Old Testament is rife with errors of not only translation, but geography as well. For instance, the mention of Jordan might not refer to a river, but a mountain range. Jerusalem is not a single city, but a region full of many townships. Unfortunately, the original Hebrew (a language not even understood by the Greeks who translated the work) is a lost language, and finding a copy of the original text of what was known as the Septuagint (the basis for the old testament) at this late date is unlikely unless we find the library of Alexandria.

The book Berry has written wonders what would happen if the lost library of Alexandria indeed was found, and how revelations of the truth would destabilize (as if things are stable at all) the already ponderous relations in the East. Fascinating stuff.