Vote Recount to Settle Doubts?

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  • DLR'sCock
    Crazy Ass Mofo
    • Jan 2004
    • 2937

    Vote Recount to Settle Doubts?

    Get in-depth coverage of current and future trends in technology, and how they are shaping business, entertainment, communications, science, politics, and culture at Wired.com.



    Vote Recount to Settle Doubts?
    By Kim Zetter
    Wired News

    Wednesday 17 November 2004

    A vote recount in New Hampshire on Thursday could shed light on anomalies with election results in that state, voting activists say. And if the recount finds problems with voting machines there, it could open the way for recounts in other states, such as Florida.

    Presidential candidate Ralph Nader requested the recount, which will include only a small percentage of voting districts in the state where anomalies appeared in the election results. New Hampshire uses a combination of traditional paper ballots and optical-scan machines -- where voters mark a paper ballot with a pen before officials scan it through an electronic infrared reader. The anomalies occurred mostly in districts that used optical-scan machines.

    Nader spokesman Kevin Zeese said the campaign was closing up shop and paying off its debts when it received several requests to look at data from a number of New Hampshire voting districts. "There was enough to it that made it worthwhile to at least check it out," he said.

    The data came from Ida Briggs, a Michigan voter with 20 years of experience as a software programmer, including eight years as a statistical analyst of databases for the telecommunications industry. Briggs compared this year's New Hampshire votes with those cast in 2000.

    Most people would have expected John Kerry's performance at the polls this year to be similar to Al Gore's in 2000. And in 229 out of 300 voting districts, or wards as they're called in New Hampshire, that was the case. Kerry either matched the percentage of votes that Gore received in 2000 in those wards or did better than Gore. But in 71 wards, Briggs found, Bush did better in 2004 than he did in 2000.

    When Briggs broke the 71 wards down by voting equipment -- separating wards into those that used traditional paper ballots and those that used optical-scan machines -- she discovered that 73 percent of the wards used optical-scan equipment, while only 27 percent used traditional paper ballots. Even more interesting was the breakdown per brand of voting equipment. New Hampshire wards used optical-scan equipment made by Diebold Election Systems and Election Systems & Software. About 62 percent of the wards with anomalous results used Diebold machines.

    "Which is pretty high," Briggs said. "Especially in comparison to hand-counted paper ballots, which accounted for only 27 percent of the out-of-trend wards."

    In one ward in the city of Manchester, the change was remarkable. In 2000, Gore beat Bush 49 percent to 48 percent. But this year Bush carried the ward with 53 percent of votes. In another Manchester ward where Gore won 52 percent to Bush's 44 percent in 2000, Bush won with 50 percent to Kerry's 49 percent this year.

    "The numbers could be real," Briggs said. "But to be this dramatically outside of the trend raises some red flags."

    Some people have explained away the numbers as a result of affluent Massachusetts voters moving to New Hampshire to take advantage of its tax system. These transplants would be more likely to vote for Bush. But Briggs thinks this is too anecdotal and shouldn't be used to dismiss the numbers.

    "It's also anecdotal that urban voters tend to vote more liberal than rural voters, but in New Hampshire we see that trend reversed," she said.

    Briggs said the wards with surprising numbers account for about 235,000 votes, at least 200,000 of which are in wards that used Diebold machines. This is significant because earlier this year, activists found security flaws in the Diebold counting software that could allow someone with access to the system to alter votes.

    But Briggs stressed that there was nothing to indicate fraud.

    "My take is this could simply be a glitch. And if someone made a mistake, then it's an easy find," she said. "Thank God New Hampshire has a paper trail so we can just sit down and count the paper ballots."

    Unlike states and counties using paperless touch-screen voting machines, New Hampshire passed a law in 1994 requiring all voting machines to produce a paper trail, so the paper can easily be used to verify the vote results.

    But this isn't why Briggs chose to examine New Hampshire's machines. She chose the state because Kerry won there, with 50 percent of the votes to Bush's 49 percent, and people would be less likely to view her examination as a partisan tactic to overturn Bush's victory.

    The recount will consist only of 11 wards, taken from a list of wards that Briggs supplied to the Nader campaign. Because state officials are already busy conducting 15 recounts in close local races, they will only be able to count five of the wards Thursday and will do the remaining six wards at a date to be determined.

    Nader paid a $2,000 deposit to secure the recount and will have to pay an additional amount once the state determines the full cost, though it isn't expected to cost much more. If the 11 wards indicate problems with the machines, Nader officials will likely ask to widen the recount to include 44 wards.

    Nader spokesman Zeese said New Hampshire officials have been very cooperative. He said his group also evaluated information about anomalies in Florida that were uncovered by a mathematician, but found no reason yet to call for a recount there.

    "We're open-minded about looking at any evidence that raises suspicions that has legitimacy," he said. "But we're not going to just jump in and do a recount without reason." He said they looked at data showing that in Florida counties using optical-scan machines numerous Democrats had voted for Bush. But he concluded, as several academics did, that "it's not unusual," since many Democrats in Florida had been voting Republican for years.

    But if the New Hampshire recount uncovers problems with the machines, the Nader campaign will consider seeking a recount in Florida, since the state uses many of the same Diebold and ES&S optical-scan machines as those in New Hampshire. The process in Florida, however, would be more complicated and expensive.

    "New Hampshire makes it very easy to ask for a recount. But Florida requires you to file a lawsuit. You have to get a court order," Zeese said. "And we need to have a compelling reason to request a recount."

    Briggs said that interesting data has also shown up in Ohio and New Mexico, though she has not yet been able to examine all of the figures she needs from those states. She said states vary in the level of data they make public and that finding numbers for individual voting districts rather than for whole counties has so far been difficult to do in Ohio and New Mexico. But at least two candidates are already seeking a recount in Ohio.

    Anthony Stevens, New Hampshire's assistant secretary of state, said he thinks the recount in his state is a good thing.

    "It will put people's minds at ease," Stevens said. "It will assure (voters) that things are being done right. It also may discourage any future tampering of the machines (if people see that the machines will be examined). So it's a good check and balance of the process."

    Both Zeese and Briggs said whatever the recount results, the outcome would be positive.

    "It will either show that there wasn't a problem with the machines or we'll find a problem and raise issues that need to be raised," Zeese said.

    "Whenever there is even a perception that there is a problem, then there is a problem," Briggs said. "If people are raising questions then by God you sit down and you prove it so nobody has to take anyone's word for it. Why have four years of bitterness and doubt?"

    -------
  • DLR'sCock
    Crazy Ass Mofo
    • Jan 2004
    • 2937

    #2
    Interesting how again the anomalies that occured, occured in districts using optical scanning machines, just the same way as in Florida where the exit polling data and the results in the districts using optical scanning machines were way way off....


    A pattern??

    A trend??

    we will see....

    Comment

    • Guitar Shark
      ROTH ARMY SUPREME
      • Jan 2004
      • 7576

      #3
      Kerry lost. Get over it people, Jesus.
      ROTH ARMY MILITIA


      Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
      Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

      Comment

      • FORD
        ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

        • Jan 2004
        • 58755

        #4
        One thing's for sure...

        Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik seem to care far more about Democracy and the will of the people than either the Kerry camp or the BCE.

        None of those three have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning. So why are they leading the effort?

        Even if Junior succeeds in stealing this election, it's starting to look like the minor parties might emerge the true winners.
        Eat Us And Smile

        Cenk For America 2024!!

        Justice Democrats


        "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

        Comment

        • Carmine
          ROTH ARMY SUPREME
          • Apr 2004
          • 7691

          #5
          Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!

          Comment

          • FORD
            ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

            • Jan 2004
            • 58755

            #6
            Yeah, but you guys need to get rid of Pa-tacky and Mayor "turned Republican when he got rich"
            Eat Us And Smile

            Cenk For America 2024!!

            Justice Democrats


            "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

            Comment

            • alsip
              Groupie
              • Jul 2004
              • 92

              #7
              The election returns illustrate what real trouble the Democratic party is presently in--indeed, we run the risk of effectively becoming a de facto one-party system over the next 20 years if the Democrats do not bring themselves to the center. This is very dangerous for the country. Reflect on the fact that an unpopular president with a two-digit IQ, a known hothead who is proud of the fact that he never seeks outside advice, just won re-election by 3.5 million votes. This is largely because the Democrats fielded an incredibly weak ticket, and were once again radicalized and perceived of a party of the extreme left.
              (Interestingly, I would submit that someone like Joe Lieberman, a cautious and thoughtful moderate, would likely have won this election--he would have carried the following states: California, New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island.)
              But Kerry--who was really perceived of as having few principles and simply being yet another pandering politician--chose to play to the Dean-led left and radicalize the party. And yet even as weak a candidate as Kerry probably could have won had he moderated his viewpoint--e,g., by acknowledged that low taxes benefit productivity and wealth-creation, which benefits everyone--and played to the center.
              This is all dangerous because the more the Democratic party is marginalized, the more nutty things the Republicans have license to do--such as (1) configuring the Supreme Court, which will have a 30-year impact, (2) retarding scientific development, a la stem cell research, (3) pushing a gay marriage ban, (4) overturning Roe v. Wade, etc., and (5) accelerating the trend to making America a Christian theocracy; whereas a centrist and robust Democratic party would at least keep these baser Republican tendencies in check.
              Unless the Democrats "get" this, the country will continue to drift to a far right posture, including, most importantly, the further weaving of (the Christian) religion into our cultural fabric (e.g., evidence the composition of the two new loonies in the Senate) which is both terrible for all of us and contrary to the principles upon which this country was founded.

              Comment

              • Carmine
                ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                • Apr 2004
                • 7691

                #8
                Originally posted by FORD
                Yeah, but you guys need to get rid of Pa-tacky and Mayor "turned Republican when he got rich"
                Its being handled....Mayor "turned republican when he got rich" made alot of enemies here! Pa-tacky will live or die on the min. wage increase, and so far he is dying!

                Comment

                • Switch84
                  Veteran
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 2315

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
                  Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!

                  Big Ragoo Baby, we ALL still live in America! Ford's map is just as funny as the "Jesusland" map.

                  LOL! Michigan is my homestate and I recently moved to Georgia (my Mom's homestate.) So, am I an 'American' or a 'Dummystanian'?

                  This is FUN! I needed that laugh, y'all!
                  "He doesn't need to sell millions of records, he doesn't need to fill arenas, he doesn't need to be popular, he doesn't need your money, AND HE DOESN'T NEED YOU!"
                  Blackflag on DLR

                  Comment

                  • ELVIS
                    Banned
                    • Dec 2003
                    • 44120

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
                    Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!
                    I think the map sucks, but it shows what kind of person FORD really is...

                    You can feel the love and compassion pouring out from FORD's heart every time you look at it...

                    Comment

                    • Carmine
                      ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 7691

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Switch84
                      Big Ragoo Baby, we ALL still live in America!
                      I know its funny, but...the second term has not even officially begun and....

                      already....boy it sucks to be a Major Airline employee!( they have asked Federal Judges to TERMINATE existing Union contracts)

                      This guy will undo the last 100 years worth of Labor legislation!

                      and that shit hits me hard!

                      Comment

                      • Switch84
                        Veteran
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 2315

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ELVIS
                        I think the map sucks, but it shows what kind of person FORD really is...

                        You can feel the love and compassion pouring out from FORD's heart every time you look at it...

                        No kidding, Elvis Baby! He'd probably advocate nuking the red states...........
                        "He doesn't need to sell millions of records, he doesn't need to fill arenas, he doesn't need to be popular, he doesn't need your money, AND HE DOESN'T NEED YOU!"
                        Blackflag on DLR

                        Comment

                        • FORD
                          ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                          • Jan 2004
                          • 58755

                          #13
                          Originally posted by alsip
                          The election returns illustrate what real trouble the Democratic party is presently in--indeed, we run the risk of effectively becoming a de facto one-party system over the next 20 years if the Democrats do not bring themselves to the center. This is very dangerous for the country. Reflect on the fact that an unpopular president with a two-digit IQ, a known hothead who is proud of the fact that he never seeks outside advice, just won re-election by 3.5 million votes. This is largely because the Democrats fielded an incredibly weak ticket, and were once again radicalized and perceived of a party of the extreme left.
                          (Interestingly, I would submit that someone like Joe Lieberman, a cautious and thoughtful moderate, would likely have won this election--he would have carried the following states: California, New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island.)
                          But Kerry--who was really perceived of as having few principles and simply being yet another pandering politician--chose to play to the Dean-led left and radicalize the party. And yet even as weak a candidate as Kerry probably could have won had he moderated his viewpoint--e,g., by acknowledged that low taxes benefit productivity and wealth-creation, which benefits everyone--and played to the center.
                          This is all dangerous because the more the Democratic party is marginalized, the more nutty things the Republicans have license to do--such as (1) configuring the Supreme Court, which will have a 30-year impact, (2) retarding scientific development, a la stem cell research, (3) pushing a gay marriage ban, (4) overturning Roe v. Wade, etc., and (5) accelerating the trend to making America a Christian theocracy; whereas a centrist and robust Democratic party would at least keep these baser Republican tendencies in check.
                          Unless the Democrats "get" this, the country will continue to drift to a far right posture, including, most importantly, the further weaving of (the Christian) religion into our cultural fabric (e.g., evidence the composition of the two new loonies in the Senate) which is both terrible for all of us and contrary to the principles upon which this country was founded.
                          First of all, let me say I'm shocked to actually read a post from you that acknowledges what a joke Junior is, which seems to be a 180 from everything you have written in the past.

                          Though your choice of Joe Lieberman as the answer doesn't quite work. Joe's about as right wing as one can be and still claim to be a Democrat. I'm not sure where Joe is on stem cells, but he's no fan of gay marriages or Roe vs Wade, and as far as theocracy goes, I think Joe would be all for it, given his past pro censorship views on music, movies, video games and so forth. Joe's only problem with theocracy would be the label "Christian", but since most of the radical right's agenda comes from the Old Testament anyway and virtually ignores the teachings of Jesus Christ, then it's really not all that "Christian" after all.

                          Howard Dean, on the other hand is a true moderate. Fiscally conservative, common sense viewpoints on what wars this country does and does not belong in, recognizes the need for stem cell research, as a doctor who understands medical science. And yes, the first governor in this country to sign a civil unions law, allowing gay couples to have the legal rights they deserve, while leaving issues of religious ceremonies to the churches, synagogues, etc, as it should be.

                          And he's got a Jewish wife and kids too
                          Eat Us And Smile

                          Cenk For America 2024!!

                          Justice Democrats


                          "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                          Comment

                          • Nickdfresh
                            SUPER MODERATOR

                            • Oct 2004
                            • 49127

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
                            Its being handled....Mayor "turned republican when he got rich" made alot of enemies here! Pa-tacky will live or die on the min. wage increase, and so far he is dying!
                            Eliot Spitzer in 06'!

                            Comment

                            • Switch84
                              Veteran
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 2315

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
                              I know its funny, but...the second term has not even officially begun and....

                              already....boy it sucks to be a Major Airline employee!( they have asked Federal Judges to TERMINATE existing Union contracts)

                              This guy will undo the last 100 years worth of Labor legislation!

                              and that shit hits me hard!
                              Fuck, sorry about your woes, Ragoo Baby! I'm job hunting again, looking to change careers for the umpteenth time! I'm in Transportation, so I feel ya.

                              Unfortunately, unions as we know it have been slowly turning into an elitist fraternity rarely caring about their 'brothers in arms'. My former union president attended more high priced 'Grand Poobah' jaunts with fat cat business CEOs than addressing the needs of us workers!

                              Jimmy Hoffa died in more ways than one; his fight for the worker ideology has died, too.
                              "He doesn't need to sell millions of records, he doesn't need to fill arenas, he doesn't need to be popular, he doesn't need your money, AND HE DOESN'T NEED YOU!"
                              Blackflag on DLR

                              Comment

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