Tyson Vs Ali in there prime

[academic punk]

And Tyson in his prime had two things that Ali in his prime didn't: his managements encouragement to be a fucking animal, and steroids.

Sorry. Tyson laid a hand on anyone in his day and they're lucky their head didn't come off.

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by academic punk
POJO -

Why are you typing...with...all...these...pauses..?

It makes...reading your posts remin...remin...reminiscient...of hearing...Ali speak...these days...

Are you new here...?

[POJO_Risin]

And you realize that you are essentially saying that Tyson is one of the top 2 boxers of all time...

which is this side of ridiculous...

His management had nothing to do with how he fought...Kevin Rooney did...and if you think Rooney's strategy was to "be an animal..."

well...that's just not the case. He fought like Frazier...with 2 things that he did better...

1. Tyson...in his earlier fights...wasn't stationary...and didn't just move forward...he very consistently moved from side to side...so his punches would come at different angles...and he wouldn't get hit as much...

2. Tyson had Foreman's power.

Rooney is a master at breaking down opponents weaknesses...so that Tyson went into the first couple of rounds looking for specific openings...and he always found him because he isn't a windup puncher...his power comes quickly and immediately...

Ali would know all of this...would get Tyson frothing at the mouth...and believe it or not...Tyson throwing uncontrollable bombs is much better than the concise Tyson...prime...no prime...Ali would have Tyson out of his game 2 months BEFORE the fight...

and there aren't any steroids on the planet that will make a difference in that.

No offense punk...but I think you are missing what made Ali so great other than his athletic gifts...

if you watch his fights in the 60's...they are something to behold...

and if he would have been that fighter in the 70's...he would be EVEN GREATER...

[guwapo_rocker]

This was a great fight!

[academic punk]

Oh, Ali is one of my top three heroes of all time, I love the guy.

but the sport had advanced...well, advanced isn't the right word...evolved...no...changed into something different from what it had been in Ali's day. terrible comparison, but I don't think the 69 Mets could beat even today's yankees (work with me, I can't try too hard, I just got back from chucking a frisbee around in central park)

In Tyson's style it had nothing to do with a "sweet science". And that's exactly what Clay was so masterful at understanding (as well as PR and image, but that's a different story). And I just don't believe that Ali could've beaten Tyson in his prime. I don't think anyone could have. That does not mean he was one of the best boxers for all time. far from it. I don't think tyson had any defense or stamina - as has been stated, if tyson couldn't nail his opponent early, then he would tire and slow down considerably. (he also lacked finesse, and control, as has been proven over time) I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either of their punches - even today - but Tyson even moreso.

[academic punk]

oh, and p.s. yes I'm aware that...this...is how you always type, but when I see it in a post discussing Ali it takes on a new sort of poignance!

[POJO_Risin]

lmfao...

punk...

Tyson's fighting had everything to do with the sweet science...that D'Amato and Rooney taught him...

when it turned into just aggression...he started losing...

I remember watching a special on Tyson before he was BIG...when he was fightning on Friday Night Fights on ESPN...and knocking everyone out in the first round...

and they were talking about how his aggressive style was something that D'Amato put together watching Ali and Frazier fight...that he wanted a fighter that could utilize Ali's ability to bob...with Frazier ability to charge...

he just needed to find the athlete to do it with...

he found it with Tyson.

IF Tyson would have continued to develop in that range of thinking...it's my opinion that he would have become the greatest fighter of all time...

didn't happen though...

Ali would kill him...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
lmfao...

punk...

Tyson's fighting had everything to do with the sweet science...that D'Amato and Rooney taught him...

when it turned into just aggression...he started losing...

I remember watching a special on Tyson before he was BIG...when he was fightning on Friday Night Fights on ESPN...and knocking everyone out in the first round...

and they were talking about how his aggressive style was something that D'Amato put together watching Ali and Frazier fight...that he wanted a fighter that could utilize Ali's ability to bob...with Frazier ability to charge...

he just needed to find the athlete to do it with...

he found it with Tyson.

IF Tyson would have continued to develop in that range of thinking...it's my opinion that he would have become the greatest fighter of all time...

didn't happen though...

Ali would kill him...

They may have taught him the "sweet science", but that doesn't mean he ever LEARNED it. the fact that he despite all of his training fought like a street brawler and would knock his opponent out in the first round - and the fact that as he aged and was no longer able to accomplish that and suddenly found that he had no stamina - is proof.

And he NEVER ducked in those fights early in his career where he would knock his opponent out in the first round - he just went in and achived the knock-out.

And, as you say, if he was able to duck like Ali and charge like frazier, then he would've found the combo and the skills to be a more acoomplished boxer than Ali.

the commentators can say whatever they like regarding his technique, bottom line is they found a guy who was essentially the Hulk - in both his size, fists, and aggression - and slapped a pair of boxing gloves around his wrists.

[POJO_Risin]

Dude...did you watch any of his fights?

Did you see how many times his COUNTER punches leveled someone?

bob to the right...land a bomb.

Dude...I've been watching fights for damn near 25 years...and I'm NO boxing officianado...but I know what I saw...

Ali never ducked...Tyson never ducked...

if you duck in Boxing...a ham n' egger could knock you out with an uppercut...

movement...side to side...

Ali was a pro at it...

and if you've seen any of Tyson's fights...especially once he started fighting quality opponents...you'll see what I'm talking about.

HE WAS a more accomplished boxer than you are even giving him credit for. He wasn't just a thug...although you apparently want to believe that.

He didn't lose stamina...nor did he lose athleticism when he was in gym...what the fuck do you think he did all day?

What he forgot was the training. Watch his fight against Spinks...against Berbick and Thomas...against all those guys in the beginning...even against Douglas...his charges are calculated...always movement...head side to side...punches coming strategically...a body blow to open up the head for a combo to put him out...

then watch his fight against Holyfield...against those guys...he's just charging...

and Cus D'Amato wasn't a commentator...

Dude...like I said...I'm not a boxer...nor profess to be a trainer...

but when you watch the hundreds of fights in my life...you see it...

so when you hear it...it makes sense.

besides...if you don't think Tyson had any strategy other than thugness...you are helping my defense...more than your own.

say what you want...once Tyson lost Rooney...whenever he faced a quality opponent...he wasn't for shit...there was no movement...no counters...it was all offensive boxers...and the guys with chins beat him...

[POJO_Risin]

Damn...I wish I had some tape so I could show you what the fuck I'm talking about...

I'm not saying he was as good at both styles as Frazier and Ali...

but he used both...because D'Amato was a damn good trainer...and because Tyson listened to him...and Rooney because he was a D'Amato guy...

oy...

[POJO_Risin]

Going by your thinking...you are saying that Tyson goes into an Ali fight with no strategy or ring sense...and beats him...

OK...forget all I said...let's go with that...

because if that's the case...if you really think a thug without any strategy could beat Ali...

you are insane...

just ask Foreman...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Going by your thinking...you are saying that Tyson goes into an Ali fight with no strategy or ring sense...and beats him...

OK...forget all I said...let's go with that...

because if that's the case...if you really think a thug without any strategy could beat Ali...

you are insane...

just ask Foreman...

Touche. You should be a lawyer, mate!

[POJO_Risin]

lmfao...

sorry bro...I could back either side of it to be honest...

I do think Tyson is more of a fighter than many give him credit for...

but the could've beens are painful...

he coulda been "The Greatest...."

[freak]

An Easy answer to that - Ali.

Why?

1. Tyson is an emotionally immature, hot-headed mental midget. Ali would have sown the seeds of Mike's ass kicking long before the fight took place.

2. What exactly happens to Tyson when he fights someone with a granite chin, decent handspeed, great boxing skills and has no fear of him...This is an easy question...It only happened twice during his prime and it was the same guy...Right, Evander Hollyfield! Let's put Hollyfield beside Ali in terms of chin, boxing ability and heart. Ali is Hollyfield *cubed*.

Someone above mentioned that Ali didn't have punching power. Bullshit. Tell that Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Spinks, Liston, etc... Just because he wasn't a single punch knockout artist doesn't mean he hit like a f*cking girl. His jab was brutal. Look at the leverage he put on it and look at his opponents faces in the mid to later rounds. Only one boxer had a better jab - Larry Holmes.

With Tyson, it'd be a repeat of Ali-Foreman. Middle to later rounds, a swelled-up, frustrated and spent Tyson falls down - goes boom.

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Ali, no doubt about it.

No-one calls Tyson 'The Greatest', do they? As a matter of fact, most people call him an idiot.