Pope Reaffirms No Condom Stand

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by scorpioboy33
told yah you were easy to read..haha

Some magic trick there, kiddo. I think more than half the people on this board know where I stand politically. Not too hard when you've read me in the Front Line for the last 3 years, now is it?

Originally posted by scorpioboy33
oh yah ...nice numbers Ally...it is more like 250 k huh......idiot

Is that always the standard answer from you whenever someone finds something contradictory to what you stated and asks what your source was; we're idiots? I'm sorry. I call that being curious.

Like I said, I got the numbers from an anti-war site and the recent articles that I also looked at had similar numbers. I did my research and that was what came up. Obviously, I'm not the only "idiot" with these figures. That's why I asked where you got your numbers from. Thankfully, Rikk was kind enough to mention they were the UN's numbers, so now I know where you got them from.

[Rikk]

So ALLY, your argument is that an anti-war website will have a more accurate figure than the U.N.? And at least scorpio and myself told you exactly where the source was from. You listed "some article" and an "anti-war website".

Few are denying the Iraqi numbers. And the fact that YOU of all people are trying to cite an anti-war cite's figures considering you discount everything else they say is a little telling.

Few are questioning the numbers of dead. The question is is it morally right. Maybe you need to convince yourself that it's not more than the tsunami dead to make yourself feel better.

I'd love to see how self-righteous you would be if it were 250,000 dead in your New York City. Then you wouldn't be so patient and act as if it were still the right thing to do.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Rikk
So ALLY, your argument is that an anti-war website will have a more accurate figure than the U.N.? And at least scorpio and myself told you exactly where the source was from. You listed "some article" and an "anti-war website".

Few are denying the Iraqi numbers. And the fact that YOU of all people are trying to cite an anti-war cite's figures considering you discount everything else they say is a little telling.

Few are questioning the numbers of dead. The question is is it morally right. Maybe you need to convince yourself that it's not more than the tsunami dead to make yourself feel better.

I'd love to see how self-righteous you would be if it were 250,000 dead in your New York City. Then you wouldn't be so patient and act as if it were still the right thing to do.

Um, no, I think you are reading me wrong.

I hadn't heard the high statistics. I'm not saying that the anti-war site would be more reliable than the UN, but I am surprised they aren't all over the higher statistics and are reporting such a low number. I went to the anti-war site because I figured I would more easily find the figure there. I also named the anti-war site; it's Iraq Body Count. With everything else I have to research, read, and report on, I grabbed the first reputable site I could find after google and recent news articles, which held the same figures. I was honestly asking where the statistics came from. I was not being self-righteous, believe it or not. I'm also used to scorpio being apart of a crew in the front line that quotes tripod and geocities sites as the ultimate news scource. The fact that it was the UN number was farthest from my mind because such a source is not what I am used to with that crew.

And, question, just because I am not against the war means I can't look at and/or agree with something on an anti-war site? Just because I don't agree with them on the big picture doesn't mean that I dismiss them completely as "idiots". Contrary to what many left-sitting people here think of me, I don't just subscribe to one side and then block everything and anything that says something bad about them. That's not healthy.

And whatever happened to you saying that you knew nothing about me and didn't care about anything about me? Now you know enough about me to judge on how I view things and what I types of sites I can or can not use to cite for information?

And scorpio never mentioned where the statistic was from. Only you did and I said "thankfully" when I mentioned that. FYI - I was thanking you. Geez, if thanking you results in this, I'll make a note to never do it again.

[Rikk]

I was not angry with you. It was simple conversation because of the statistic you listed. Once again, don't read so much into this.

I shouldn't have used the term "self-righteous".

You and I are always crossing swords, and I guess I don't really understand why. Yes, we disagree on many things...that's probably part of it.

Anyway, no worries. I also don't agree with the idea that someone on one side of an argument should just read the literature that comes with that side. That's extremely closed-minded...balancing all information is indeed much healthier.

[LadyTudor2711]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
If having a brain means promoting birth control, it won't happen. The Church doesn't believe in birth control.

This is precisely the problem. These Pro Lifer's do not want people to engage in safe sex and think that abstinence and fidelity will keep you safe and healthy. This is delusional thinking. Very dangerous.

Certain people feel that not teaching young people about the implications of having sex is productive or helpful. It is reckless.

Children and people alike need to understand that choices have consequences. If people are not aware of the dangers they can not mitigate them.

I was raised Catholic, baptized and confirmed, but I do not agree with the church in regard to their position on birth control and safe sex. I am Pro Choice and advocate a woman's right to choose for herself.

The government and the church can keep their red tape and family values out of my uterus.

I am in charge of my reproductive rights not anyone else. If I had children I would tell them the truth, even buy the condoms myself,birth control if I had to.

I would be my duty as a parent to look after my children and keep them as safe as I could. You can't keep them in a box.

People buy their kids bike helmuts to keep them safe? What is the difference. Knowledge is power.

Not hide behind fire and brimstone and all that Jerry Falwell crap. Reaping the whirlwind.. Please... . We are no longer in the stone age, we do not have sex to create more children so they can work the land. A voice from the sky ....

Don't have children if you can not take care of them, not everything is a divine blessing. Sex is natural and is a part of all of our lives, no matter how uncomfortable the subject matter is for some, it is the truth.

Procreation is thought by many to be a right, but indeed it is a privilege. Just like a drivers license or your right to vote. Not everyone is geared to be a mother or father.

There are too many unwanted, unloved children in the world. Why do we need more? Why should we lie to our children and not tell them the risks involved with having sex.

Pregnancy, disease and death. I think those reasons are valid regardless how religious you are. They can all change your life.

HIV/ AIDS and other STD's are here to stay and the rate of infection and unwanted pregnancy in teens is up and continues to rise every year. The worst fear was getting pregnant , now that is the least of anyone's concern.

Kids are going to have sex just like we all did when we were younger, like we all still do, but the one fact remains that safe sex is the only way to go.

If you value life then wear a condom, have some respect and be responsible.

Perhaps not wearing/using a condom will get you closer to God.

I am sure I catch some for this post, so let me have it.

LT

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Rikk
I love numbers like those that are carefully manipulated in order to make people feel better.

The official U.N. number was over 250,000 last I heard.

Yes, official U.N. number.

Was it worth a quarter of a million lives to "free Iraq"?

Yup.

Come on over to the Frontline a little more often, fellas.

[Dan]

I wonder if the Pope has ever Put a condom on before?
No Pope,Not on the carrot.

[Dan]

BTW..There's a female Condom out there to,so The Guys don't have to worry about that.

[academic punk]

what is this "condom" you all keep talking about?

[Rikk]

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711
Perhaps not wearing/using a condom will get you closer to God.

Great post, LT.

I'd like to see Ally or others that don't believe in safe sex be truly honest with their satisfaction in seeing their own children suffering from AIDS because they had parents or schools that did not sit them down and talk to them about sex. Jesus Christ...does anyone really think teens get their sexual ideas from health class? Does anyone really think preaching abstinence is going to keep kids away from having sex? Does anyone really think five kids actually practicing abstinence is worth the one kid that didn't know very much about safe sex and ended up ruining his or her life through AIDS or teen pregnancy?

This is the 21st century. Sex before marriage is a reality and the norm.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat

Not everyone within the Church is a pedophile. And the only reason the Church even does the hush money and relocating thing is because there is an extreme shortage of priests. If there wasn't such a shortage, those that are accused would have been removed first and foremost. But, because of the shortage, they can't do that or else churches would close up and quick, of which I'm sure you wouldn't mind. Also, with those accusations, a lot of them happen because of the hush money and no investigation, which is unfair to those priests who are innocent. Yes, there are those who were innocent. But you never heard about those stories when everything was going on.

That's probably in part true but it also one of the sickest fucking things I've ever read and for you to accept it shows the power of these money grabbing superstitious control freaks when they can indoctrinate people like you.

The percentage of peadiophilic priests compared to the population at large was 1000s of times higher because it was part of the culture and ethos of the organisation for years. If you wanted to fuck a child then you became a priest. Easy access and it was the done thing. People like you would turn a blind eye even if it was done to their own kid.

There's often a shortage of teachers here I bet it's the same in the US. I'm not unusual in thinking I would rather my kid was in a larger class than getting fucked by the teacher and threatened with damnation if they told me about it.

Fuck the catholic church it's a sick evil organistaion and has been for hundreds of years. I'm sure there are a few good apples in the barrel but it's a stinking rancid barrel. It should be made illegal.

Bead rattling terrorists. They're even worse than the protestants or the muslims.



Cheers!

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
That's probably in part true but it also one of the sickest fucking things I've ever read and for you to accept it shows the power of these money grabbing superstitious control freaks when they can indoctrinate people like you.

I never said I liked it or that it was right.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Rikk
Great post, LT.

I'd like to see Ally or others that don't believe in safe sex be truly honest with their satisfaction in seeing their own children suffering from AIDS because they had parents or schools that did not sit them down and talk to them about sex. Jesus Christ...does anyone really think teens get their sexual ideas from health class? Does anyone really think preaching abstinence is going to keep kids away from having sex? Does anyone really think five kids actually practicing abstinence is worth the one kid that didn't know very much about safe sex and ended up ruining his or her life through AIDS or teen pregnancy?

This is the 21st century. Sex before marriage is a reality and the norm.

You make it sound as if I want to deny everyone a condom! :p

I would be upset if any of my children ever contracted AIDS, but I woudl also realize that it was a consequence of their own actions. I fully plan on teaching my kids about the dangers of unprotected sex. I also fully plan on teaching them about what the faith says about pre-marital sex and the stance on birth control. And I will also make it fully clear that if they are going to go around and have casual sex, that it is important to protect themselves because of the dangers that I have taught them. What they do from there -- having sex, using or not using protection -- is their choice and road in life. I would hope that I would have drilled everything into their heads for them to make the best choices for themselves and others.

I never got a sex talk from my parents. Sex was a taboo subject with my mother, and still is. Yet, by the time I was 12, I knew my stuff about the different diseases, symptoms, the different ways besides sex that you could contract them, and all that. And that was in a Catholic elementary school. Then when I went onto high school, an indepth Biology class and a very descriptive Health class went into even further detail. So there's at least one teen in this world who got her sexual ideas from Health class. If I did not believe in what I do believe and was running around wild, I would be having the only safest sex.

In today's world, you will rarely find a school that does not teach about sex and the diseases one can catch with unprotected sex. Parents maybe, but kids get a lot of sex education at school. And even with free condoms!

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711
This is precisely the problem. These Pro Lifer's do not want people to engage in safe sex and think that abstinence and fidelity will keep you safe and healthy. This is delusional thinking. Very dangerous.

I think it is unfair to group all Pro-Lifer's with that viewpoint. Not every Pro-Lifer is of a Catholic belief on birth control. Hell, not all Pro-Lifer's are Catholic.

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711
Certain people feel that not teaching young people about the implications of having sex is productive or helpful. It is reckless.

Who? Who are these certain people? My generation and those following have had the most sex education ever taught. The only way teenagers today do not get the information is if they do not pay attention to when it is being taught or brush it aside. I have gone to all religious instituations for my education and each and every one of them taught us about the diseases and how to prevent them and what to do if you contracted them.

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711
Children and people alike need to understand that choices have consequences. If people are not aware of the dangers they can not mitigate them.

Why is it always that they are not educated? And why is it that it is always someone else's fault as to why people are having unprotected sex? Why can't there be a personal responsibility? Remember being a teenager? I'm sure everyone here has at least one stupid thing they remember doing. And at the time of doing said stupid thing(s), they never thought of the danger or, if they did, cared. It's that invincibility spirit that comes across each and everyone of us at some point and time in our life. Teenagers are most guilty of this behavior. It's not that they aren't educated in what AIDS is or how bad herpes really is and how there isn't a cure for either. No. It's the "it'll never happen to me so why bother" attitude. That's what ya need to scare into them -- that it can and will happen to them if they keep up their current attitude and practice. Sex education is available every where you look. There's classes in schools, lectures, books, call-in radio shows, call-in television shows, website after website. There are organizations made specifically to get the word out. People need to think of their consequences more. And of all the bad things everyone here could say of it, I learned to take responsibility for what I decided to do and not to cast blame to others from my faith. And I hope that with that and good, informative parenting that I can do the same for my kids.

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711
unwanted pregnancy in teens is up and continues to rise every year. The worst fear was getting pregnant , now that is the least of anyone's concern.

Whaa? Last I hear, teen pregnancy was at an all-time low and has been on a steady decline since the 90s -- http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/prates.asp

Originally posted by LadyTudor2711

Perhaps not wearing/using a condom will get you closer to God.

I may be interpreting you wrong, but it comes across that you think I will contract something deadly and thus go to meet my maker. No, not me. I don't run off wild. And I'm glad I didn't. I don't have some horror story attached to my teenage life and/or sex life like most of my friends do. I never sat in chemistry and wondered why my period was late and if I would be able to finish school. I never had to go get bloodwork done after having random sex at some party. I never got used for sex like they did and I never acted like a hypocrite by claiming one thing about Abortion and then running to have one after I got knocked up by someone I didn't even know.

Does it get me closer to God in a spiritual sense? No, I can't say the idea does. But I can say it flows with belief about God being infallible. I don't think He makes a mistake, and for me, personally, to take some pills to prevent myself to ovulate, or taking a morning after pill, or even having an abortion gives the impression that He does. I am an adult; I am an informed adult. I never said I would ever withold information about safe sex from anyone. I know the path I took is not the easiest out there or the one most traveled. I've had one friend I know tell me I was stupid for waiting and how I would regret it. But good things come to those who wait and what I have was definately worth it and I don't regret a minute of it. If I had to live it all over again, I would. I definately would.

[LadyTudor2711]

Dear Ally Kat:

I am not here to debate you point for point, but I have my views just like you.

Pro-Lifer's no matter what their beliefs have no right to try and force others to fit into their divine criteria.

And when we don't, we become sinners or less worthy of God's love? That is a load of crap. I thought it was God' duty to judge us, not each other?

I am an advocate for abortion, safe sex, condoms, femmedoms, BCP, vasectomy, tubal ligation, IUD, sponges, foam, whatever the method. These precautions need to be available to everyone who wants to utilize them.

If people, young people especially; knew about these options, maybe there would be less instances of STD, Aids and pregnancy. Most people feel that it will never happen to me.

I know that there are many avenues of information that are disseminated via the internet, etc. Maybe instilling fear in kids is the best way, show them what these disease look like and how contracting them will impact their lives.

Thanks for posting your stats, but numbers are numbers. These statistics do not prove that abstinence and fidelity in practice work to stop the infection of disease or unwanted pregnancy. Maybe it is down because people are using condoms.....

I do not doubt that you are a good parent, and I am not faulting you for having faith in God. I am also a believer, my system is just different. It just seems so ridiculous that we as a society still have people that are so naieve.

What would anyone of these Lifer's do if their 15 year old daughter was pregnant? That would be life altering. What would the parish think of a an unmarried, pregnant girl?

Would you then have the birds and the bees conversation, or push her down the stairs? If you had just been informed about your options, perhaps that could be a situation which could be avoided. Cause=effect.


My grandfathers mother, Magdalena, was the first mid-wife in Illinois to perform abortions. Women had no where to go, but a dark alley and rusty knitting needles. We can never go back to thos days.

It does not make sense, don't use condoms, have sex only with your spouse for procreation purposes, maintain fildelity and that will keep you safe? Kids can't possibly understand that. Adults can't even follow along.

These are the same people who don't want you to have sex, but if you become pregnant, you must have it. They will even kill to prove their point, so much for the sanctity of life? Isn't muder a sin?

What if you don't want children? Like I said not every child is a blessing. Some of them are horrible, ignorant and will never amount to anything. People need to consider the gene pool in which they choose to swim.

Just look around at the adults in this world, they were once children. There are so many losers out there, I trip over a few every day. Mindless idiots that take up space and contribute nothing.

Magdelena was a mid-wife for many and was instrumental in keeping women safe and recognizing that unwanted pregnancy was a problem. Women had even less options then. Women were supposed to be barefoot and pregnant, even if they did not want to be.

She kept a diary in 5 languages and was finally prosecuted in the late 50's. During her incarceration she refused to reveal her patients and their families. A number of people petitioned the govenor for clemency but she died before the govenor could grant it.

Magdalena was in her late 60's by this time and died in the woman's infirmary from a prolonged illness. She gave up her freedom to keep her patients identity safe, which allowed them to go on with their lives. All she had to do was tell the court her patients, she refused.

I have always admired her even though I never knew her. She was very beautiful, long silver gray hair and big blue eyes. I was told that she was very well respected and the nurses used to brush her hair and sing to her while she was in her coma.

I do not have an absolute answer, but I know how I want to live and what I believe. To each his own as long as it does not interfere with my life.

You points are as valid as mine, thanks for your rebuttal.

Best,

LT