Everything one needs to know about John Kerry

[John Ashcroft]

Yep, drudge ran the "doctored" story front and center (so much for the "Right Wing Zealot" title...)

And steve, Kerry's testimony to Congress is a problem. His account has been refuted by many of his veteran peers. His relationship with Fonda is also well documented so one doctored photo means nothing.

Now Sesh, Joe McCarthy was right. 'Nuff said. Now when are you limey's gonna grow your balls back and elect a Prime Minister like Thatcher again? Or rather, when's your Queen gonna annoint one...

[steve]

No. Kerry's account may have been refuted by his veteren "peers", but those peers were the military political brass - aka: politicians like MacNamara.

Kerry's account is the HISTORICAL account. Every single solitary movie made about Vietnam (Hamburger Hill, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, the list goes on)- movies that all were based on heavey research, reveal a historical pattern. It was an ugly war. The United States military leadership conducted many many horrible operations there. Certainly there are varying arguments about what type of mistakes were made in the war, but to use a word like "refuted" is kind of extreme.

I am confused what you mean by "refuted". Clearly, there is some reason as to why most historical accounts view the war not only as a quagmire, but a vast web of unethical war-making policy by the U.S. leadership including Nixon and MacNamara.

[John Ashcroft]

Nah, don't believe the hype brother. And please don't resort to using Hollywood to support your argument, as it makes you look silly...

[steve]

hmmm...
"Hollywood" as a conservative buzzword meant to discredit any argument concerning art's interpretation of history?
No, I don't buy that.

If the films I referenced were fiction (like say, something Arnold S. made) then yes, your comment would be valid.

However, I am referencing a wide range of historical/interpretive movies in which most of the characters and all of the events are based on real people. "Born On the Fourth Of July", for instance was a Hollywood movie, yes, but most importantly it was a real person's story about the government turning it's back on it's soldiers.

History channel had a documentary on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial a couple years ago. It documented how a lot of people in government were against it, including Richard Nixon.

[steve]

For instance...

try to name one single piece of art that references Vietnam in a positive manner.

I can't think of a single one.

At any rate, my point is that one cannot just merely say "he was refuted" if the vast accounts of history say he was not. If you say Kerry was refuted, one has to first admit that they are a tiny fraction of a tiny minority, and furthermore actually make an argument why they think what they think.

I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am just curious as to your thoughts, please.

[Seshmeister]

My Lai Massacre

On March 16, 1968 the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the village of My Lai. "This is what you've been waiting for -- search and destroy -- and you've got it," said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public.

My Lai lay in the South Vietnamese district of Son My, a heavily mined area of Vietcong entrenchment. Numerous members of Charlie Company had been maimed or killed in the area during the preceding weeks. The agitated troops, under the command of Lt. William Calley, entered the village poised for engagement with the elusive Vietcong.

As the "search and destroy" mission unfolded it soon degenerated into the massacre of over 300 apparently unarmed civilians including women, children, and the elderly. Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped, and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.

Word of the massacre did not reach the American public until November of 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with ex-GI and Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.

As the gruesome details of the massacre reached the American public serious questions arose concerning the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. A military commission investigating the My Lai massacre found widespread failures of leadership, discipline, and morale among the Army's fighting units. As the war progressed, many "career" soldiers had either been rotated out or retired. Many more had died. In their place were scores of draftees whose fitness for leadership in the field of battle was questionable at best. Military officials blamed inequities in the draft policy for the often slim talent pool from which they were forced to choose leaders. Many maintained that if the educated middle class ("the Harvards," as they were called) had joined in the fight, a man of Lt. William Calley's emotional and intellectual stature would never have been issuing orders.

Calley, an unemployed college dropout, had managed to graduate from Officer's Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1967. At his trial, Calley testified that he was ordered by Captain Ernest Medina to kill everyone in the village of My Lai. Still, there was only enough photographic and recorded evidence to convict Calley, alone, of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison, but was released in 1974, following many appeals. After being issued a dishonorable discharge, Calley entered the insurance business.

[Seshmeister]

Thursday, 26 April, 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1298289.stm

Senator 'admits Vietnam massacre'


The US is still dealing with the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict

Former United States Senator Bob Kerry, a possible contender for the White House in 2004, has admitted that his commando unit massacred civilians when he was a Navy officer in Vietnam, The New York Times has reported.

Mr Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star for the 25 February 1969 action in the village of Thanh Phong in the Mekong Delta.

Basically you're talking about a man who killed innocent civilians
John Kerry

Bob Kerry

The two-time Democratic senator from Nebraska says his unit of seven Navy Seals - elite commando troops - killed at least 13 women and children during indiscriminate night-time firing.

One of the men under his command at the time disputes Mr Kerry's version of events, claiming that the unit rounded up the civilians and killed them to hasten their escape.

Mr Kerry refused to contradict the man, saying their memories differed.

In-depth investigation

Mr Kerry, who stepped down from the US Senate in January and is now president of the New School University in New York, admitted his role in the massacre over the course of more than two years of interviews with The New York Times.

Mr Kerry said he has been haunted by Vietnam memories

A possible presidential candidate, Mr Kerry said it would be "very interesting to see the reactions to the story. I mean, because basically you're talking about a man who killed innocent civilians."

It is not clear what effect the revelations would have on any decision that Mr Kerry might make to run for office in the future.

In Mr Kerry's version of events, his group approached Thanh Phong near midnight on 25 February, 1969.

They encountered a hut on their approach, and men under his command entered it and killed the people inside.

Mr Kerry denied participating in the killings, but took responsibility for them as commanding officer.

Indiscriminate firing

When his group reached the village, they were fired upon in the darkness and shot back, firing some 1,200 rounds.

When they investigated after they stopped shooting, he said, they found they had killed a number of women and children. There were no adult men among the dead.

Gerhard Klann, a more experienced soldier who was under Mr Kerry's command at the time, remembers events differently.

He said Mr Kerry helped him kill an old man and woman and three children at the first hut, and that the unit then rounded up and shot the women and children of Thanh Phong to prevent them raising the alarm.

The Army Field Manual explicitly forbids killing prisoners "on grounds of self-preservation", but many people who served in Vietnam said the unwritten rules of the conflict made it clear that such actions were acceptable.

Witnesses

A Vietnamese woman who says she was an eyewitness supported Mr Klann's story.

I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you - I think killing for your country can be a lot worse
Bob Kerry

The only other member of the commando unit willing to speak to the press about the raid supported some elements of each account and contradicted others.

Mr Kerry - who was given the Medal of Honour for a later operation and lost a leg to a grenade in the conflict - says he has been wracked by guilt for 32 years since the event.

"I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you," he told The New York Times, referring to how he felt before he went to Vietnam as a 25-year-old lieutenant.

"I think killing for your country can be a lot worse. Because that's the memory that haunts."

The New York Times magazine will publish its full investigation into the incident on Sunday. The CBS television series 60 Minutes II, which collaborated on the report, will broadcast a programme on it on 1 May.

[BigBadBrian]

Thanks for the update on this well-known story. Any rugby scores over there to report?

[Seshmeister]

Not any good ones...

[John Ashcroft]

Sorry Steve, missed this one.

I'm not labeling the Vietnam (or any war) as a "good" one. I'll be the first to admit that the whole thing was one giant cluster fuck of an operation from the get-go (didn't you get my "who ran that operation anyway?" jab?) It's what happens when you let politicians, not military officers, run wars. Far more soldiers were killed due to politicians like Kerry, than Vietnamese citizens were killed by the stars of your "documentaries". Atrocities were commited by both sides, undoubtably. But let's face it, even the History Channel has to "sex up" their documentaries to make them watchable (although I'll admit they do it far less than "Born on the 4th"). Speaking of which, have you seen their documentaries on Saddam Hussein?

Anyway, no war is pretty, but to label the American servicemen as war criminals is just plain ridiculous. And what's the point? For every supposed attrocity commited by the G.I., there are a hundred thousand commited by these piss-ant communist dictatorships and their thugs. Why not steer your invective towards them? What's the deal? It's quite clear what the deal is, it's a thinly veiled hatred for the United States. This is why I don't consider anything out of hollywood to be anything else but entertainment. I most certainly wouldn't base my position on their version of any event.

And Sesh, since when did you start caring about the American Serviceman?