do any of actually like bush?

[Big Troubles]

Man, I need to be in your neck of the woods. All mine are looser than Sam's solo work. Hey, maybe your nailing them before me?

[John Ashcroft]

Probably, but when you've got 60 pounds of danglin' fury betwixt you legs, they're all tight....

[lesfunk]

Bush is too liberal...

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Were you for or against CFR?

And I'm just stating facts here, princess. The same group organizes most of these supposed protests.

And were the WTO protestors anti-war? Was that their theme? Yet, many of the same show up to protest anything American. You can't simply dismiss this by belittling these questions as modern-day McCarthyist kooks being paranoid.

Oh, and how's about the spokesperson for the ELF? A self proclaimed communist fighting for the "environment". Yep, Craig Rosebraugh is the man! You know, the guy who said "Terrorism can be okay", and "can be justified". He also advocated violence to stop the war in Iraq (typical environmentalism, right?).

The funny thing is, he's recently embraced the evils of capitalism to "pay the bills", by opening an upscale resturant in Portland called "Calendula". He also drives a Toyota 4-Runner...

So much for "The Cause"...

The war going on is not between socialism and capitalism. But a war by socialists, small business capitalists, workers, anarchists etc. against corporatism. Don't confuse corporatism for capitalism, because they're not the same.

Small business' for the most part are not buying off our politicians or control everything we see and hear in the media. Look at who you've got sponsoring these "patriotic" rallies? Monopolies like Clear Channel. Then you have the mainstream media distorting the numbers, overestimating their numbers for their corporate rally and virtually overlooking the other one. Some of our rallies might be controlled by commies, but yours are being controlled by a force more frightening. They control the airwaves and we're a long way from China.

We need not share ideology to know that corporatism is something that's destroying the country. If you believe otherwise, then fine. Continue supporting the shredding of the constitution. Blindly pledge allegiance to the corporate state. It's your choice. It's a free country no matter what rights that they think they can take away. I'll just continue to spread the word of what you are afraid to admit.

[John Ashcroft]

And yet once again no examples to back up the accusations.

I think "Corporatism" is the left's new catch phrase for the modern day boogie-man. But when you get down to it, no matter what fancy new name you create, it's still the tired old class-warfare argument.

[FORD]

Republicans used to be the party of small business and now they defend worthless shitbag corporations like Fear Channel, ENRON, and the oil companies. What the Hell happenned?

Free market? Competition? How the fuck are these things possible in a world where most industries are controlled by 3 or 4 global mammoths? This isn't capitalism, it's fascism, by Mussolini's own definition. Old Bennie's gotta be laughing his ass off down in Hell right about now

[John Ashcroft]

Nah, if what you were saying were true, there would be no AOL, no Yahoo, no e-bay, no Amazon.com, no MicroSoft, etc, etc.

The evidence is strongly against you on this one.

[FORD]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Nah, if what you were saying were true, there would be no AOL, no Yahoo, no e-bay, no Amazon.com, no MicroSoft, etc, etc.

The evidence is strongly against you on this one.

AOL is one of the worst. They own Time Warner (which was already a mammoth corporation). Odds are you have at least one AOL product on your computer right now, even if you don't subscribe to their crappy Internet service. I'll admit that I prefer their instant messaging to MSN's, and WinAMP is by far the best media player available.

Amazon has swallowed up dozens of online retailers, which really sucks because 1) Their prices aren't as good as the old company and 2) Since Amazon is based in Seattle, I have to pay state sales tax on anything I order from them no matter where it's shipped from

As for Microsoft, there are legal court decisions establishing them as a monopoly, so that's a good enough definition. Technically, anybody can buy a Macintosh or a Linux machine if they want to, but both hardware and software compatibility are going to be problems.

Furthermore, these companies were more or less established before the massive corporate consolidation began, and as I pointed out, all of the above have since benefitted directly from it. But there's no competition. Even if a Linux distribution was written tomorrow that was 10 times easier for the most basic Windows end user, what are the odds it would ever compete seriously against Microsoft?

Dozens of ISP's are better than AOL, but how can they compete with a multinational marketing budget?

And I've already mentioned Amazon swallowing it's competition, literally. So your own examples work against you. If any of these companies were starting today, instead of 1985 (AOL and Microsoft anyway), they would never make it in the current Walmartized business climate

[John Ashcroft]

Nah, the point is, new companies couldn't exist if "corporatism" were real. AOL certainly wouldn't have been in a position to buy Time Warner (regardless of what they are today). Oh, and didn't IBM just make a deal with UNIX? I thought I saw a superbowl commercial alluding to it.

[Pink Spider]

What about the corporate media blackout of 3rd party candidates?

"New companies couldn't exist if "corporatism" were real"

Not true. Capitalism is not entirely dead. It just has little chance of survival against the corporate machine. But, tell me, how many local TV and radio channels aren't nationally owned or operated in your area in some way? Very close to none here. If capitalism is still here, where are all the choices??

Keep telling yourself that corporatism isn't real. It won't make it so.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Dr. Love
If Kerry wins, I hope you guys bitch for 4 years about it like the other side has done.

Not me, once the election is over i'm done harping and turn to respecting the man in charge whoever he is, whatever he represents or what party he is a member of.
You see, I respect the office of the Presidency more than i do the short term individual who fills the position for 4 or 8 years.

I like President Bush because he is showing the world that we still have a pair and will use them when needed. NAFTA put me out of a job and so i blame Clinton for that. he is no Republican is he?
But the number of people who lost jobs vs. the amount taxes were raised still made it possible to build a surplus.
Some people looked at that money as a good thing, I and many others (especially the 15 of us who were let go from our jobs after 4+ years of dedicated service) saw that money as not belonging to Washington and wanted it back.
Bush gave it back, and now if we could put an end to American Companies sending work that belongs here at home to over seas employees we may be able to build an "HONEST" surplus that doesn't punish lower income workers.

It is a fact that a majority of Americans work for smaller businesses, it is also fact that in a crashing economy those are the first to suffer because of such low profit margins. which in turn turns many skilled workers out into the street....then take into account that those skilled workers are replaced with cheaper labor, if at all, by illegal immigrants.

NAFTA promoters including many of the world’s largest corporations promised it would create hundreds of thousands of new high-wage U.S. jobs, raise living standards in the U.S., Mexico and Canada, improve environmental conditions and transform Mexico from a poor developing country into a booming new market for U.S. exports.

NAFTA opponents including labor, environmental, consumer and religious groups argued that NAFTA would launch a race to the bottom in wages, destroy hundreds of thousands of good U.S. jobs, undermine democratic control of domestic policy making and threaten health, environmental and food safety standards.

It seems to me and thousands upon thousands of other people that found themselves out of work agree with the opponents 10 years after it's conception. (this is the 10 year anniversary year you know)

Kerry is a no go for me because he speaks of fixing this while his wife is guilty of the same thing many times over.....

Bush suits me just fine on that issue and in dealing with Terrorism...He put money back in my pocket that would have only meant more out of it under Gore, and in the future, Kerry......

I'll place my vote on election day and do as i have done since i was 18.........deal with it.

[FORD]

Don't forget that NAFTA was George Bush Sr's project. Poppy created it, Poppy sold it to Canada and Mexico, Poppy signed it. All Clinton did was encourage Congress to ratify the damned thing. Which neither he, nor they, should have done, but to characterize it as Clinton's creation is wrong.

And Clinton was in reality a moderate Republican as President, with some of his positions actually being to the right of Dick Nixon. Clinton WAS the head of the DLC for a while after all, and there's not a true Democrat among that bunch regardless of their claims to the contrary.

Junior, on the other hand, is no Republican either. He's a fascist authoritarian, just like his grandpappy's good buddy with the funny mustache.

[Cathedral]

Now you see why i didn't vote for Bush Sr. to have a second term...I agree with you, but what i hold against Clinton is him seeing it through when it was clearly going to be bad for our future.

He could have stopped it and he didn't so he failed me along with everyone else that suffered for it.

Do you understand yet that i vote for the people who i feel are right for the job as opposed to being a strict party voter?
That is not so much the case today because of the Liberal agenda and finding a Liberal who i can agree with is nowhere near as easy at it was 10 years ago.
The right has gone to the extreme right and the left has gone to the extreme left....For a guy like me there is no longer a middle ground, so it's one side or the other, period.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Cathedral

The right has gone to the extreme right and the left has gone to the extreme left....For a guy like me there is no longer a middle ground, so it's one side or the other, period.

If only that were true. At least then there would be a choice.

Instead you have the GOP pandering to the extreme right while the DLC has turned the Democrats into a right of center party. The Greens are the closet thing there is to an organized liberal party, but they are as of yet not anywhere near capable of competing nationally, given the big money bastardization of the process.

Junior vs Judas illistrates this lack of difference perfectly welll. Perhaps a slight difference in domestic policy. Not a damn difference in foreign policy.. And even if Kerry managed to create 10 million jobs, it wouldn't doi a lot of good if 90% of the world still hates us because of PNAC imperial fascism.

[Cathedral]

Agreed, I think the Green Party deserves equal funding and an equal chance at the office.
I even assumed that by now they would have that chance...so things don't look to good to me in the near future.

And it is true from my perspective that neither party suits me 100%. Hell i can't even find a Democrat i can stand behind so i have to focus solely on the issues that matter to me personally. and without re-directing this thread i'll assume that you remember the most important ones to me.