Judge Quizzes Doctor About Pain Fetus Might Feel During Controversial Abortion Proced

[ELVIS]

You lost the arguement. Shut up...

[Ally_Kat]

47% are second, or thrid or whatever time abortions. Throwing sex education at the matter isn't going to change that. Trust me when I say that teenagers know what putting a penis and a vagina together can bring about. Trust me when I say that they know the insides and outs of condoms, birth control pills, and now the day after pills. Hell, the kids prefer the aftermorning or whatever it's called pills to the birth control ones and condoms.

Unless you fail Bio and health in elementary school AND high school, you know what the hell you are doing.

You want to know why there's unwanted pregnancies? The kids won't go buy condoms or get birth control pills cuz they're afraid that their parents will find out. And if their parents find out about them having sex, they're afraid that they'll get in trouble. That and try to get kids in my generation and younger to talk to their parents about sex. Most of the time it won't happen. All the kids I know didn't have the sex talk with their parents cuz the parents figured that the school was going to do it, so why bother. I think we need to have more parents talking to their kids. Hell, I'd love to be able to talk to my mother about stuff sometimes, but anything doing with members of the opposite sex just doesn't come up with us cuz, well, i learned about dealing with them in 6th period after English and before History.

[John Ashcroft]

It's amost always simple lazyness. And yes, abortion is used as birth control. It's fucking horrible for sure. And government has ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING BUSINESS IN TELLING PARENTS WHEN AND HOW THEY SHOULD "EDUCATE" KIDS ABOUT SEX!!! They'll only fuck it up and make it worse.

[FORD]

Reducing Teenage Pregnancy

Pregnancy & Childbearing Among U.S. Teens

Although teenage pregnancy rates in the United States are declining, a significant number of American teens have unintended, often unwanted, pregnancies each year, yielding negative outcomes for teenage parents, their children, and society in general. For example, teenage mothers are more likely to drop out of high school and live in poverty, and their children frequently experience health and developmental problems (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998). While millions of American families struggle individually with the emotional and economic challenges that unintended pregnancy can bring, teen pregnancy poses a significant financial burden to society at large — an estimated $7 billion per year (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998).

While children need no permission from their parents to become parents, 30 states currently have laws in effect, or scheduled to take effect, that mandate parental consent or notification prior to a minor’s abortion. Most of these states, however, allow a minor mother to place her child for adoption without her parents’ involvement. Legislators in these states have decided, in effect, that while young women may not be mature enough to decide for themselves to terminate a pregnancy, they are all mature enough to become mothers and to make medical and other life decisions for their children. :confused:


Despite Recent Declines in Teenage Pregnancy Rates, 40 Percent of American Teens Still Experience Pregnancy

Between 1995 and 1996, the national teen pregnancy rate fell 4 percent, from 101.1 to 97.3 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15–19 (Henshaw, 1999). This drop contributed to a 17 percent decline since the rate peaked in 1990. Eighty percent of this decline is a result of improved contraceptive use among sexually active teenagers, and another 20 percent is attributable to increased abstinence (Saul, 1999).

• * Each year approximately one million U.S. teenagers become pregnant — 11 percent of all women aged 15–19 and 20 percent of those who are sexually active (AGI, 1998).
  
  
  * About 40 percent of American women become pregnant before the age of 20 (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998).
  
  
  * About 78 percent of teenage pregnancies are unintended, accounting for one-quarter of all accidental pregnancies per year (AGI, 1998).
  
  
  * Among sexually experienced teens, approximately eight percent of 14-year-olds, 18 percent of 15–17-year-olds, and 22 percent of 18–19-year-olds become pregnant each year (AGI, 1998).
  
  
  * Each year, approximately 19 percent of black women, 13 percent of Hispanic women, and eight percent of white women aged 15–19 become pregnant (AGI, 1994).
  
  
  Teenage girls with older partners are more likely to become pregnant than those with partners closer in age. A recent study found that 6.7 percent of women aged 15–17 have partners six or more years older than they. The pregnancy rate for this group is 3.7 times as high as the rate for those whose partner is no more than two years older (Darroch et al., 1999).
  
  * Among teenage pregnancies in 1994, 55 percent resulted in birth, 31 percent in abortion, and 14 percent in miscarriage (AGI, 1998).

Rates of Teenage Childbearing in the U.S. Are the Highest in the Developed World.

The U.S. teenage birth rate is the highest in the developed world: twice as high as England’s, three times as high as Australia’s, four times as high as Germany’s, six times as high as France’s, eight times as high as the Netherlands’, and 15 times as high as Japan’s (Annie E. Casey Foundation, 1998; Berne & Huberman, 1999).

Reasons for the lower rates of teenage childbearing in these countries include mandatory, medically accurate sexuality education programs that provide comprehensive information and encourage teens to make responsible choices easy access to contraception and other forms of reproductive health care, including abortion social acceptance of adolescent sexual expression as normal and healthy straightforward public health media campaigns government support for the right of teens to accurate information and confidential services (Berne & Huberman, 1999)

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/TEEN-PREGNANCY/teenpreg_fact.html

Now there's a couple things in there that I don't neccessarily agree with, but the facts do speak for themselves. Where accurate information and contraception is available, there are less pregnancies, and therefore, less abortions.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

I have no objection to parents who want to teach the subject themselves, provided they DO SO. If they do not, then they have nobody but themselves to blame if their kid comes home preggers. Or knocks up somebody else, as the case may be.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
You calling me a "baby killer" is pathetic.

Not if you support keeping abortion legal it's not.

It is YOU who supports thousands of Iraqi children being slaughtered over greed and lies. It is YOU who supports the Sharon regime's brutal murder of Palestinian children.

Thousands murdered? So now you're calling our forces MURDERERS, huh? You have no reliable statistics to support that despicable claim. There are verified accounts of THOUSANDS of children murdered by Saddam's regime over the years.

I've never supported Israel attacking civilian targets, unlike you who obviously feels there is no problem with Palestinian kids strapping bombs to themselves and taking other children and innocent people with them to say shit howdy to Allah the Moon God. I do defend Israel's right to take out civilian terrorist targets, however. It's a tragedy on both sides when innocents die. Palestinians, however, don't restrict their targets to military ones.

I don't advocate killing anybody, with the possible exception of rapists and pedophiles. Perhaps the PNAC fascists, under the proper penalty for treason. But I have never once advocated "killing babies".

Abortion does just that. The issue is not about a woman's right to choose as you have obviously been brainwashed into believing.


Unlike yourself, I offerred some realisitic means of eliminating the problem. If you want to live in a fantasy world where teaching your kids to be ignorant will keep them safe, then you can only blame yourself when you are proven wrong.

Your means are a little Draconian. In doing so, you're eliminating people's right to free speech by enforcing such a plan (in my school district, parents can opt a kid out of sex ed lectures), and possibly their practice of religion. You believe that's more important than outlawing abortion? Get real.

[Satan]

No, dumbass.

I believe that abortions WILL NOT be eliminated by making them illegal, but could very easily be eliminated by eliminating unwanted pregancies.

And the unwanted pregnancies will be eliminated by honest information and reasonable use of contraception.

See how fucking easy that is?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Satan
No, dumbass.

I believe that abortions WILL NOT be eliminated by making them illegal, but could very easily be eliminated by eliminating unwanted pregancies.

And the unwanted pregnancies will be eliminated by honest information and reasonable use of contraception.

See how fucking easy that is?

Not without violating a bunch of rights I don't.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Satan
No, dumbass.

I believe that abortions WILL NOT be eliminated by making them illegal, but could very easily be eliminated by eliminating unwanted pregancies.

And the unwanted pregnancies will be eliminated by honest information and reasonable use of contraception.

See how fucking easy that is?

And I'm telling you that 3,000 kids that went to my high school got the honest informantion. Didn't stop the kids from not using condoms or birth control and didn't stop us from having a bunch of girls drop out cuz they got knocked up or the other ones going to the guidance office to find out how to get abortions.

The attitude about sex needs to change first. People have this it won't happen to me attitude.

[Lou]

Just to clarify, my point about two wrongs not making a right is that if a pregnancy happens in a case of rape/incest, it doesn't also make it right to abort the child because the woman was wronged. That's a whole other argument though.

Also, comparing this to prohibition is ridiculous. Drinking alcohol and kiling a human being (viable or not) is not anywhere NEAR the same thing.

I think it's a very sad state that our leaders by and large turn a blind eye to this. My unsubstantiated opinion is that abortion is legalized because there are so many of them, courts don't feel like spending time on abortion cases. Making it legal solves that problem.

[Satan]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
And I'm telling you that 3,000 kids that went to my high school got the honest informantion. Didn't stop the kids from not using condoms or birth control and didn't stop us from having a bunch of girls drop out cuz they got knocked up or the other ones going to the guidance office to find out how to get abortions.

The attitude about sex needs to change first. People have this it won't happen to me attitude.

The attitude there comes from the teenage feeling of immortality. I have some folks here in Hell who really WILL be teenagers forever because they tested that theory a little too much. Drove drunk, mixed the wrong drugs, played with guns, etc. All sorts of really, really dumb stuff.

Far be it for the Devil to preach morality, but I wonder how many of these kids get their education from the streets because their holier than thou parents think that ignorance will keep them pure?

[ELVIS]

Get off your high horse asswipe...

You don't know shit about heaven or hell...

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Satan
The attitude there comes from the teenage feeling of immortality. I have some folks here in Hell who really WILL be teenagers forever because they tested that theory a little too much. Drove drunk, mixed the wrong drugs, played with guns, etc. All sorts of really, really dumb stuff.

Far be it for the Devil to preach morality, but I wonder how many of these kids get their education from the streets because their holier than thou parents think that ignorance will keep them pure?

Ford, listen to me. For my school:

Passing Biology - not to mention taking a regents in it - is mandatory to graduate high school.
Passing Health is mandatory to graduate to graduate high school.

Holier than thou parents didn't keep them ignorant. Biology is the first science in the sequence, so it's the first thing you learn at age 13/14. And it's rare in New York State that the kid hasn't had Biology before. We spent a whole two months on human reproduction. That included what a penis and vagina are, what comes out of them, how they can get sick, how you can prevent them from getting sick, etc.,etc.

Health showed us the freakiest pictures of diseases, a couple of birthing videos, and talked to a chick who got knocked up in high school. We were exposed.

Still didn't stop about half of the girls in my school from having an abortion/having a kid.

And the families these kids came from - they acted like they were on the streets but if they ever met a real gang member they would pee their pants. This kids were privledged.

You said it in your first sentence and that's what I' m trying to get at. People never think it will happen to them. They know they should wrap it up, they know they should keep taking their pills, but they'll go, 'fuck it, what's the worse that can happen?" in the middle of a moment. People need to realize that the AIDS isn't just for gay guys who take it up the bum and that syphillis isn't just for crack hoes.

Until that attitude changes, no matter how much you educate them, they'll still get sick/knocked up.

[lucky wilbury]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--abortionlawsuits0402apr02,0,4246356.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

Judge quizzes doctor whether a baby ever cries during an abortion
By LARRY NEUMEISTER
Associated Press Writer

April 2, 2004, 4:58 PM EST


NEW YORK -- A judge considering the constitutionality of a law banning certain second trimester abortions asked a doctor some tough questions Friday, including if doctors ever hear a baby cry during an abortion.

The question was posed by U.S. District Judge Richard C. Casey as he heard evidence about the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, a law being studied by judges at simultaneous trials in New York, San Francisco and Lincoln, Neb.

"Does the baby ever make any noise or cry?" Casey asked Dr. Carolyn Westhoff, who estimates she performs or supervises 500 or more abortions annually in Manhattan.

"It does not withdraw or move," Westhoff said.

"Do the hands ever move?" the judge asked.

"The fetus is limp," Westhoff answered.

Westhoff said women choose an abortion for a variety of reasons, though the vast majority want a child but reject the pregnancy because the fetus has abnormalities.

At one point, Casey, who is blind, asked Westhoff, "A condition that causes blindness, can that be detected?"

He added that he wanted to know if "a mother can detect in advance that a baby will be born blind."

"Not that I'm aware of," Westhoff answered.

Westhoff was among a series of doctors questioned by the judge this week about whether a fetus feels pain and exactly what women are told about the techniques that will be used to kill a fetus during an abortion.

Abortion-rights supporters are challenging the federal ban, the first substantial limitation on abortion since the Supreme Court's landmark Roe v. Wade decision. The law will not be enforced before the courts rule on its constitutionality in a case expected to end at the Supreme Court.

The simultaneous litigation centers on the ban of what lawmakers defined as "partial-birth" abortion and what doctors call "intact dilation and extraction" _ or D&X.

In the procedure, a fetus is partially delivered and its skull is usually punctured or crushed so it can be pulled from the body. The government says it is gruesome and causes pain to the fetus. Abortion rights advocates argue it is sometimes the safest procedure for women.

Although some observers suggest the law will affect 2,200 to 5,000 annually out of 1.3 million total abortions, doctors at the trials this week have testified it would affect about 130,000 abortions or almost all in the second trimester.

During testimony Friday, Westhoff said U.S. abortion techniques are so safe that abortion is safer than continuing pregnancy.

"Would you recommend abortion rather than childbirth?" the judge asked.

"If a woman wants to have a baby, she should continue and take the risk," Westhoff replied.

The doctor testified that she usually takes steps to collapse or crush the head of the fetus to extract it from the uterus, a statement that prompted the judge to ask, "Do you tell the women that, do you use the words collapse or crush?"

"No I do not," she said.

"I didn't think so," Casey said.

Later, the judge asked her if she tells women undergoing abortions when she knows the procedure must include brain extraction to collapse the fetus head. He asked the question just after she said some women like to hold the fetus to aid grieving.

"Did you tell them you were sucking the brains out of the same baby they desired to hold?" the judge asked.

"They know the head's empty," the doctor responded. "I don't tell them I'm sucking the brain out."

When Westhoff added that she doesn't "think that helps the grieving process," Casey snapped, "I didn't ask that."

In testimony a day earlier, Dr. Cassing Hammond said he sometimes tells women that he will crush the skull of the fetus during an abortion.

"We want them to know exactly what the procedure is going to entail," said Hammond, who estimates having performed 3,000 abortions in the last 15 years.

Hammond, who works at Northwestern University Medical School, said the doctors "actually try not to sugarcoat this for them because they're the ones who are going to undergo the procedure."

He said many of the women before an abortion are emotionally fragile.

"We don't go into gory detail," he said.

___

On the Net:

Planned Parenthood trial site: http://federalabortionban.org

Justice Department: http://www.usdoj.gov