Israel Takes A Stupid Pill

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by m_dixon1984
...
It does seem that the Israeli reaction to a simple military action (the attack on the Israeli tank company and the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers) has been far from showing reasonable restraint but as I've pointed out the situation is far from simple.

The majority of all civilians caught in the midst of military action are essentially innocents so FORD and friends who continue to use this against Israel are really just following the media's lead. Using the strife of innocent people to make a case against any military action is almost childish. It overly simplifies very complicated situations and makes choosing sides black and white. Israel kills women and children, Hezbollah attacks the Israel military. Cut and dry right? Israel is the bad guy. Israel has decided that Lebanon is incapable of controlling Hezbollah and the Lebanese people, unfortunately, are going to pay a heavy price. The Lebanese people, however, had their choice to completely distance themselves from Hezbollah and chose instead to include them in their government.

The Lebanese just gained their independence from Syria last year, they have a very tenuous political situation of uniting a country with three or more distinct offshoots of religion. Everyone (the UN) has condemned the attacks on the Israelis and the hostage taking of its soldiers. However, destroying the civilian infrastructure is a shortsighted, foolish action by Israel that may have long term consequences. They may actually destabilize Lebanon causing Hezbollah to take control, or throw her back into civil war, which many think Israel cynically wants in order to exploit them. But this will no doubt lead to more terror attacks...

Are the innocents completely innocent?

No. Women and children should be exterminated in gas chambers.*sarcasm* YES! Civilians are never supposed to be attacked, nor are they supposed to collectively punished for the actions of a few. And I'm getting sick of paying for it! You sound like you could be an Islamic demagogue talking about the Israelis, or Bin Laden talking about U.S. citizens, something Islamic fundamentalists like to use against the U.S.!

And were the eight countrymen of yours "innocent?" Or did they secretly deserve to die via Israeli fire? I guess they're happier dead that way than if they died in a Hamas terror attack?

Lets hope Syria and Iran stay out of direct action long enough for diplomacy to have a chance to end what is so far a small conflict. And yes, before it's mentioned, let's hope Israel doesn't move against Syria at the same time.

M

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by RuzDNailz
It's true. Rockets are always getting fired into Israel targeting basically anything in it's path. Suicide bombers are always attacking buses and cafes where innocent people go into do their own business. Israel has been battling their hostile neighbours for almost 6 years now. I'm hoping that soon there will be a ceasefire and a solution to all this. All Lebanon has to do is release the soldiers unharmed and reconstruction can begin in Lebanon. With the G8 Summit taking place,
world leaders are looking at both sides and are willing to ask both to negotiate. It sucks to see all the Israel bashing going on here, but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's sad to see places get bombed and people getting killed, but this has to stop.

But somehow, Israel statistically manages to kill three or four Palestinians for every dead Israeli...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by RuzDNailz
That's why it's great that we have a Conservative minority government here. Liberals may have a say in certain things, but the Cons are the ones basically running the show now.

Then let your gov't send Israel $3billion (US) a year, so you can make yourselves bigger terror targets!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
That's a ridiculous generalization.

Pat Buchanan is a true conservative. His level of support for Israel is so low that he's been called "anti-semite" more than once. And in more recent years, he's certainly been no fan of the PNAC agenda.

I am a Liberal. I support the existence of the state of Israel. I also support the right of the Palestinian people to have their own state. Israel has the same right to self defense as any other nation, within reason.

Bombing the living shit out of Lebanon, killing children and Canadian nationals, and fucking up infrastructure (in order to secure new Haliburton contracts) is NOT a reasonable response to the "kidnapping" of two Israeli soldiers, who BTW were NOT within Israeli borders when they were captured. (Bet the Jerusalem Likud Post forgot to mention that part, didn't they?)

No nation has the right to live by different rules than anybody else. And I will NEVER support such lawless arrogance. Not from the Likud. Not from the BCE. Not from anybody.

It's not a generalization, it's exactly how it went down today.
I'm not speaking on a country wide scale here either, just among those i spoke with today.
I do have both Liberal friend's AND Conservative friend's.

Not a damn one of the Liberal's gives a shit about Israel.

[m_dixon1984]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The Lebanese just gained their independence from Syria last year, they have a very tenuous political situation of uniting a country with three or more distinct offshoots of religion. Everyone (the UN) has condemned the attacks on the Israelis and the hostage taking of its soldiers. However, destroying the civilian infrastructure is a shortsighted, foolish action by Israel that may have long term consequences. They may actually destabilize Lebanon causing Hezbollah to take control, or throw her back into civil war, which many think Israel cynically wants in order to exploit them. But this will no doubt lead to more terror attacks...



No. Women and children should be exterminated in gas chambers.*sarcasm* YES! Civilians are never supposed to be attacked, nor are they supposed to collectively punished for the actions of a few. And I'm getting sick of paying for it! You sound like you could be an Islamic demagogue talking about the Israelis, or Bin Laden talking about U.S. citizens, something Islamic fundamentalists like to use against the U.S.!

And were the eight countrymen of yours "innocent?" Or did they secretly deserve to die via Israeli fire? I guess they're happier dead that way than if they died in a Hamas terror attack?

Hezbollah already controls Lebanon there can be very little doubt of that now. How very reminiscent of the Taliban controlling Afghanistan. Why didn't anyone see this coming?

Hezbollah became political but in no way modified their position on Israel. They've essentially taken control over Lebanon with the blessing of a portion of their population. Hamas, now the democratically elected government of Palestine, still rejects all calls to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. These politcal parties represent a portion of the people of Lebanon and the majority of people of Palestine. Am I happy that any civilian gets hurt or killed in what should be a military confrontation? Of course not. Is it impossible for this to happen? The history of all warfare tells me that innocent civilians die in war. Could either Lebanon or Palestine have chosen a different path for themselves? The people who voted for Hezbollah and Hamas didn't seem to want to try. Some innocent civilians will die because of it; some should have been expecting it. It's all very sad.

I'm certainly not happy that Canadians died in this war. However, everyone has a choice where they vacation. Choosing the middle-east, even at the best, most peaceful of times, isn't necessarily the wisest of decisions (playing by Darwin's rules this is like rolling a vacation snake-eyes). I'm certainly not going to buy into any bullshit that would suggest Israel intentially targeted Lebanese-Canadian civilians. I'll chalk it up to the sad inevitabilities of war.

And this war was inevitable. Anyone who didn't see it coming was blind to the changes occuring in all 3 nations involved. Israel has been voting in increasingly right-wing governments. Hezbollah and Hamas both gaining political support in Lebanon and Palestine. No international diplomacy effort since the death of Arafat - actually diplomacy in the region may have ended after Clinton's last efforts, which at least had a lasting effect until Arafat's death. This pressure cooker was ready to blow; it was at the boil for 5 or 6 years.

The fact that Lebanon and Palestine all but chose to be led by terrorist organizations was a sad indication of what the muslim/shiite community in the region truly wanted - a continued terrorist offensive against Israel - or that they were fooled into believing either group would advocate peace with Israel. The cost of their decisions will be far too great and they will surely look back with much regret.

M

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by m_dixon1984
Hezbollah already controls Lebanon there can be very little doubt of that now. How very reminiscent of the Taliban controlling Afghanistan. Why didn't anyone see this coming?

They do (or at least did) not control Lebanon. They're part of a coalition whose aim was to put to end years of sectarian strife that was the norm during the civil war of 1975-1990.

How is it in any way reminiscent of the "Taliban?" They were not democratically elected, nor did the Taliban offer the dearth of social services Hezbollah offers its constituents...

Hezbollah became political but in no way modified their position on Israel. They've essentially taken control over Lebanon with the blessing of a portion of their population.

Again, they have not taken over Lebanon, they control South Lebanon because they receive substantial support from Iran. But they also offer social services to under-served and suffering population. Basic infrastructure like hospitals, security, and social welfare in a nation torn apart by decades of war...

Hamas, now the democratically elected government of Palestine, still rejects all calls to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

That's not totally true, Hamas in fact was trying to modify its stance with semantics that tacitly recognized Israel. And they were democratically elected because they offered the only alternative to the corrupt, insular PLO/Fatah-Palestinian Authority. That's why they were elected, not because the Palestinian people really back their rhetoric.

These politcal parties represent a portion of the people of Lebanon and the majority of people of Palestine. Am I happy that any civilian gets hurt or killed in what should be a military confrontation? Of course not. Is it impossible for this to happen?

It's possible for this to happen if Israel takes a more measured response using commandos and airstrikes rather than a country-wide ground and air operation aimed at punishing the people. And BTW, your logic can also be used to justify terrorist attacks on civilians...

The history of all warfare tells me that innocent civilians die in war. Could either Lebanon or Palestine have chosen a different path for themselves? The people who voted for Hezbollah and Hamas didn't seem to want to try. Some innocent civilians will die because of it; some should have been expecting it. It's all very sad.

Oh yeah, easy for you to say Mr. Living comfortably in Canada... Those people have lived through decades of constant warfare, corruption, and anarchy. Of course they're going to support some assholes. And don't think for a minute that the Israelis are innocent in all this. They've supported massacres of Palestinians and of Lebanese in the past. Are the Lebanese, that just achieved their freedom from Syria, and a country that has only been a sovereign state for a year supposed to just achieve miracles because it serves Israel's interests?

I'm certainly not happy that Canadians died in this war. However, everyone has a choice where they vacation. Choosing the middle-east, even at the best, most peaceful of times, isn't necessarily the wisest of decisions (playing by Darwin's rules this is like rolling a vacation snake-eyes). I'm certainly not going to buy into any bullshit that would suggest Israel intentially targeted Lebanese-Canadian civilians. I'll chalk it up to the sad inevitabilities of war.

Civilians deaths are also the "sad inevitability" of terrorism, I guess terror is okay to be used in some cases, in people feel justified enough?

And this war was inevitable. Anyone who didn't see it coming was blind to the changes occuring in all 3 nations involved. Israel has been voting in increasingly right-wing governments. Hezbollah and Hamas both gaining political support in Lebanon and Palestine. No international diplomacy effort since the death of Arafat - actually diplomacy in the region may have ended after Clinton's last efforts, which at least had a lasting effect until Arafat's death. This pressure cooker was ready to blow; it was at the boil for 5 or 6 years.

No. Actually, Israel has been voting in gov'ts that were willing to deal with the Palestinians. Olmert went into Lebanon because he lacks any military record, one that Sharon had. So he is unable to bring credibility to the peace table...

The fact that Lebanon and Palestine all but chose to be led by terrorist organizations was a sad indication of what the muslim/shiite community in the region truly wanted - a continued terrorist offensive against Israel - or that they were fooled into believing either group would advocate peace with Israel. The cost of their decisions will be far too great and they will surely look back with much regret.

M

LOL The Lebanese chose to live in a state free of civil war. The Israels are the one choosing perpetual warfare by your own statements. They are able to do this because of the unconditional support of the US gov't. If they want to exterminate the Arabs, fine, let them, but not on my fucking dime, with policies that contribute to making Americans targets of 9/11s...

[RuzDNailz]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Then let your gov't send Israel $3billion (US) a year, so you can make yourselves bigger terror targets!

Actually what I'm referring to Nick, is the fact that we finally have a Prime Minister who is actually liked by the U.S. President. To tell you the truth, the support here is completely split. The dollar has increased in value (although still somewhat inferior to the American dollar) and there are some disputes that were resolved. Us terror targets? I don't doubt it at all after that big bust in Newmarket which is 35 minutes away from me.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by RuzDNailz
Actually what I'm referring to Nick, is the fact that we finally have a Prime Minister who is actually liked by the U.S. President. To tell you the truth, the support here is completely split...

Hardly a ringing endorsement by any standard...

[FORD]

Little Stevie Wonderbush will do as much to destroy Canada as Chimp has done to destroy the US. The illusion of the "minority government" will be gone the minute the Great White North is the target of the next conveniently timed terraist attack.

[BigBadBrian]

Here's to Israel and their decision to protect their national sovereignty.

Bottoms Up!!!



BTW - let's all hope Hezbollah doesn't decide to launch any long-range missiles at targets further south (Like Tel Aviv) that Iran or Syria may be providing them with. If that happens, I believe we will see the Israeli Air Force in action over Syria and Iran.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
They do (or at least did) not control Lebanon. They're part of a coalition whose aim was to put to end years of sectarian strife that was the norm during the civil war of 1975-1990.

How is it in any way reminiscent of the "Taliban?" They were not democratically elected, nor did the Taliban offer the dearth of social services Hezbollah offers its constituents...

Nope, you are wrong.

The Lebanese government are powerless against these Islamofascist thugs...even though the Lebanese government was elected.

[WACF]

Originally posted by FORD
Little Stevie Wonderbush will do as much to destroy Canada as Chimp has done to destroy the US. The illusion of the "minority government" will be gone the minute the Great White North is the target of the next conveniently timed terraist attack.

To think that Harper is out to destroy Canada is utterly ridiculous.

The changes we are seeing are long overdue...and badly needed.

This country has been and always will be farther to the left...regardless of Cons or Libs in office...than our neighbors to the south.

A convenient terrorist attack will not make the Cons. stronger.
This country swings left with the slightest breeze...farts included.
What is making the Conservatives strong is the weak Liberal party...and the way they robbed us blind....and perhaps the fact that the country did not explode the minute Harper took office.

[WACF]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
The Lebanese government are powerless against these Islamofascist thugs...even though the Lebanese government was elected.

That is a fact.

Look to Syria and Iran to see where the power lies with Hezbollah.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Nope, you are wrong.

The Lebanese government are powerless against these Islamofascist thugs...even though the Lebanese government was elected.

Just like they're powerless against these ZionFascist thugs, eh?

Actually, Lebanon has a national army, but they fear that engaging Hezbollah would cause it to fracture along sectarian lines...

Yes, the Lebanese Gov't WAS elected, but there are provisions which guarantee that each ethnic and sectarian group will have mandatory representation..

[THE BCE]

Mr. Johnson had better watch his back.