Gotta question

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
So, all the building blocks of life just happened to be at the right place at the right time for "evolution" to begin...

By chance...

Unlike the primative and totally dodgy writings of the bible, you've finally stumbled across the only argument for a creator that has any sort of running in it.

I would argue back two things.

1) The puddle argument. What are the chances of the water in a puddle in a hole in the road being the exact same size as the irregular hole? Of course that's a dumb question because it is coming from the total wrong angle. It's like the thing of saying it's a billion to one for life to start on a planet. The planet needs to be in the exact right place, the three bears theory not too hot not too cold and it needs a moon to stablise it's orbit. Most stars are binary i.e. two suns and they tend to then have too wild orbits to support life because they fuck with each other gravitationally.

Fine.

But this is where the big numbers thing comes in, in the same way as evolution being difficult to grasp because of the millions of years involved.

The current estimate for the number of planets in the universe is a billion billion. That's an insanely big number. That means that if it's a billion to one for life to develop on a planet then there are a billion planets that fit the bill.

If the universe was small and there were a hundred or so stars I think you would have to go with the creator thing because it would be insanely unlikely otherwise. But it isn't. Asking about the 999 999 999 billion dead planets is a non issue because there is noone to ask about the universe on those planets. The fact you are here as a lifeform is just the way it is. If you were a triple eared giant bug made of spaghetti then you would be asking why all the ears? There must be a god because the chances of being made of a spaghetti substance is so low. It's coming at the whole thing from the wrong angle beacause all of this science stuff with huge numbers is totally alien to our brains. Remember that as mammals we have evolved to live in pretty smal groups and to eat and fuck. In evolutionary terms it's only very very very recently we have had to think about stuff like this and our brains aren't naturally good at it.

2) A god creator theory solves absolutely nothing. It doesn't answer any question at all because as I said earlier if so 'Who or what created this god?'. A super creator? Who craeted that? A super super creator? You are totally back where you started except now you have to explain a really complex thing appearing from nowhere as a better explanation than simple things very slowly evolving over time.

Cheers!

[Dr. Love]

I believe the term you are looking for is "super-duper creator".

[Angel]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
'Infidel' is a word you'd probably only hear an extremist or fundamentalist say (which is probably what you meant anyway). Most Muslims are tolerant and respectful of other religions - it's too bad that the general image of Islam in N.America and Europe is based on what some dumbfuck extremist in the Middle East said.

And Muslims do recognize the relation between Christianity and Islam, as well as respect a majority of Biblical figures.

THANK YOU! I read the biography of Mohamed this summer, and it's amazing the similarities between the two religions...and yes, the true meaning of infidel is what we would refer to as atheists - those who don't believe in one true God.

Unfortunately, here in N. America and Europe we confuse Islamic Customs with early tribal customs, so we don't realize the similarities in the two.

By the way, Elvis... Islams believe in the same fucking God as you do, and that JC was a prophet. They do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, however they do believe that God sent a magical stairway that JC used to get to heaven with. There is a temple in Syria where JC is supposed to return when he comes back for his battle with Satan.

I believe you Christians call it the Apocolypsis.

On another note... SESH:

We never exposed our son to any religions either. As a teenager, he explored different "religions" and attended Mosques, Temples, Longhouses (native american), etc, and was able to make up his own mind about spirituality and religion.... it's all bullshit - although he does hold a certain amount of respect for native spirituality.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Proverbs 21:8 The way of man is froward and strange

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Angel
THANK YOU! I read the biography of Mohamed this summer, and it's amazing the similarities between the two religions...and yes, the true meaning of infidel is what we would refer to as atheists - those who don't believe in one true God.

Unfortunately, here in N. America and Europe we confuse Islamic Customs with early tribal customs, so we don't realize the similarities in the two.

By the way, Elvis... Islams believe in the same fucking God as you do, and that JC was a prophet. They do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, however they do believe that God sent a magical stairway that JC used to get to heaven with. There is a temple in Syria where JC is supposed to return when he comes back for his battle with Satan.

Don't forget the flying horse and pedophilia!

Because Islam came after Christianity it used it's success as a way to give a step up for Islam.

Its the same as the Christian superstition adopting a lot of the Jewish hocum, it's easier to indoctrinate people if you are just adding bullshit as opposed to creating a completely new nonsense.

Compare Mormons and Scientology. Both utter cock talk but mormans are laughed at less because they added to the Jesus story rather than starting a whole new mythology.

Cheers!

[Angel]

I still think us damn atheists are the ones that have it right.... you agree, Sesh?

[Seshmeister]

I believe the term you are looking for is "super-duper creator".

Reading some old threads and that made me laugh out loud.

Great line Doc... :D

[Andy Taylor]

From what I can see I'd say Islam is generally a more tolerant religion than Christianity and I also don't believe Jesus will turn someone away because of their religious/spiritual practises. 'I am the way' could just mean he gets to decide who gets in. To me, the existence of different religions, just as the reality of different races, ideologies is God's attempt to put people together to see how they treat each other.

[Pink Spider]

From what I can see I'd say Islam is generally a more tolerant religion than Christianity and I also don't believe Jesus will turn someone away because of their religious/spiritual practises. 'I am the way' could just mean he gets to decide who gets in. To me, the existence of different religions, just as the reality of different races, ideologies is God's attempt to put people together to see how they treat each other.

Or race and religion could be different adaptations to sunlight and regional inaccessibility. Just sayin'.

I don't think that Islam is more tolerant than Christianity by a long shot. If this were an Islamic run country I would have probably been executed for being a vocal female or for my atheism by now. Interpretation of the koran with most Muslims seems to be generally more hard lined than that of Christians and the bible. While it might not be true with all, it seems to be the case that you have more fundamentalists coming from that side than the other.

But, over half of Americans wouldn't vote an atheist into office either! So, things don't look so good for the other side.

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

[FORD]

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

The Huckster? :D

[Pink Spider]

No, no. The Paulster.

You see what 2 terms of Bush can do to a person?

I was a staunch socialist before G.W.

Anyway, I ended up voted for Barr...with a lot of regrets.

[LoungeMachine]

Nice to see Pink back in the house....

[Andy Taylor]

Or race and religion could be different adaptations to sunlight and regional inaccessibility. Just sayin'.

If that's all there is to it I wonder why people can't be more easily tolerant of others. 'That brutha over there has been in the sun too long, it's cool with me.'

I don't think that Islam is more tolerant than Christianity by a long shot. If this were an Islamic run country I would have probably been executed for being a vocal female or for my atheism by now. Interpretation of the koran with most Muslims seems to be generally more hard lined than that of Christians and the bible. While it might not be true with all, it seems to be the case that you have more fundamentalists coming from that side than the other.

But, over half of Americans wouldn't vote an atheist into office either! So, things don't look so good for the other side.

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

Which only goes to show the ideas people have about the region. Whenever people talk about the women and religion they're talking about either Saudi or Iran, they just don't know it, and they stretch that out to include the whole Muslim world. In Lebanon they have gay and trans bars. Dubai is a very cosmopolitan city. Christians are better? We know what the bible belt is like. In Dubai and another city maybe in Bahrain or Qatar, the shiekhs donate land to build churches. The inaugrations are attended by these same sheikhs. Did you know that? Course not, it's enough to assume their tyrants and be done with it. How many religious Christians would do that? They are FAR more accepting of Christianity than Christians are of Muslims. They consider Christians as believers, but with Christians it's accept Jesus or you're going to hell, there's no other path!

Even at an inter faith 'dialouge' in the Vatican, I believe initated by some Imams, they were willing to compromise by accepting the validity of Christianity but they were told, 'believe that Jesus is the son of God or else.' Regardless of the rise and fall of Middle eastern cultures, on the whole they have been more tolerant than the fire brand Christian preachers.

[Pink Spider]

Which only goes to show the ideas people have about the region. Whenever people talk about the women and religion they're talking about either Saudi or Iran, they just don't know it, and they stretch that out to include the whole Muslim world.

So, you're telling me that women have the same rights in the rest of those countries?

In Lebanon they have gay and trans bars.

Which Christian country bans those? I'm sure there's one at least.

Dubai is a very cosmopolitan city.

No shit. So was Leningrad. So what?

Christians are better? We know what the bible belt is like. In Dubai and another city maybe in Bahrain or Qatar, the shiekhs donate land to build churches. The inaugrations are attended by these same sheikhs. Did you know that? Course not, it's enough to assume their tyrants and be done with it. They are FAR more accepting of Christianity than Christians are of Muslims. They consider Christians as believers, but with Christians it's accept Jesus or you're going to hell, there's no other path!

I didn't say that Christians are much better. Marginally better.
I know about Lebanon and that it is very secular for the middle east. But, I'm just saying that I have less chance of getting killed for my disbelief in the west rather the middle east. Do you really want to debate this?

Even at an inter faith 'dialouge' in the Vatican, I believe initated by some Imams, they were willing to comprise by accepting the validity of Christianity but they were told, 'believe that Jesus is the son of God or else.' Regardless of the rise and fall of Middle eastern cultures, on the whole they have been more tolerant than the fire brand Christian preachers.

Basically you're saying that if you disbelieve in Mohammad, you can still be a Muslim? That's the first I've heard of such a thing.

[FORD]

It's funny that the right wing Jews and right wing Christians both have so much hatred for Iraq, because if you take the Bible literally (as they do) then the Garden of Eden itself was bordered by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which would put it in Iraq. And Abraham, who is considered the "founder" of the Jewish faith is clearly described as a "Chaldean" in the scriptures.

The Iraqis also invented beer, which is worthy of respect in and of itself