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You two seem to know each other...
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I see 2 poor arguments happening:
Many Republican candidates choose to use fear: "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here"...which is completely ludicrous logistically, but also morally repulsive because it suggests sacrificing other parts of the world, in essence lighting "them" on fire as a distraction to protect "us".
Then you've got many Democrats like Edwards saying "pull them out"...well, we've already impregnated this bitch known as Iraq, and an abortion does not work as an analogy. Bush's fault, Cheney's fault, Rummy's fault, congress' fault, apathetic American public's fault...to a great extent it doesn't matter. First thing to do is create some sense of stability and rule of law where our country took a collective geopolitical DUMP. And the sad sad fact is that if we leave, things will only get worse there. McCain's surge appears to be working - so as crappy as it is that many of our young men have died over there, we owe it to the Iraqis to clean up our mess. Because as much as American soldiers and their families have suffered, it's undeniable that they have suffered most. Yes, it is cleaning up BushCo's mess, but if we don't do it, we'll be back there in 20 years.Comment
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um...is it possible to agree with somebody 106%? cause if so, count me completely in steve's camp...Comment
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Originally posted by steve
I see 2 poor arguments happening:
Many Republican candidates choose to use fear: "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here"...which is completely ludicrous logistically, but also morally repulsive because it suggests sacrificing other parts of the world, in essence lighting "them" on fire as a distraction to protect "us".
Then you've got many Democrats like Edwards saying "pull them out"...well, we've already impregnated this bitch known as Iraq, and an abortion does not work as an analogy. Bush's fault, Cheney's fault, Rummy's fault, congress' fault, apathetic American public's fault...to a great extent it doesn't matter. First thing to do is create some sense of stability and rule of law where our country took a collective geopolitical DUMP. And the sad sad fact is that if we leave, things will only get worse there. McCain's surge appears to be working - so as crappy as it is that many of our young men have died over there, we owe it to the Iraqis to clean up our mess. Because as much as American soldiers and their families have suffered, it's undeniable that they have suffered most. Yes, it is cleaning up BushCo's mess, but if we don't do it, we'll be back there in 20 years.
The problem here is that we already have cleaned up "the mess" with the Surge.
It's really up to the Shiite Iraqi gov't to get their shit together, or we leave in short order...
Since they're being obstinate cunt rags basically telling the Sunnis to: "There, take that bitch!" and then hiding behind US forces, I think the only real solution is to leave and to force them to make deals...
It is what the British have effectively done in the south, and we should follow suit, which would effectively deprive the forces of extremism in Iraq of a common, external foe to justify their ethnic cleanings and tribal terror with...Last edited by Nickdfresh; 01-07-2008, 09:40 PM.Comment
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That's a leap in logic. Leave and don't look back.Originally posted by steve
if we don't do it, we'll be back there in 20 years.Comment
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So "mission accomplished"?? Sorry, I know you don't think that, persay. I think the success of the surge has only shown that now...after 5 years of training... a large-enough contingent of properly trained us soldiers is policing well and training iraqi police well. But if the Iraqi govenment themselves doesn't want the US to leave yet, then we shouldn't. I think if we weren't there, we'd have a level of ethnic cleansing in Iraq on the scale of 1990s Rowanda - statistically speaking, a situtation that DWARFED the number of dead so far in Iraq thus far. There are also arguments to be made with regards to political stability inthe region, world oil supply disruptions and residual wars over world oil, but I think the strongest argument to stay for the next couple years at least is the ethnic cleansing one.Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The problem here is that we already have cleaned up "the mess" with the Surge.
It's really up to the Shiite Iraqi gov't to get their shit together, or we leave in short order...
Since they're being obstinate cunt rags basically telling the Sunnis to: "There, take that bitch!" and then hiding behind US forces, I think the only real solution is to leave and to force them to make deals...
It is what the British have effectively done in the south, and we should follow suit, which would effectively deprive the forces of extremism in Iraq of a common, external foe to justify their ethnic cleanings and tribal terror with...Comment
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Originally posted by steve
So "mission accomplished"?? Sorry, I know you don't think that, persay. I think the success of the surge has only shown that now...after 5 years of training... a large-enough contingent of properly trained us soldiers is policing well and training iraqi police well.
No, the Iraqi police are still largely walking shit bags in much of the country, though the Army has improved.
But what the Surge really shows is that the US is largely buying off former insurgent leaders who were always dubious of 'foreign' al Qaeda ideological impositions of mass slaughter terrorism.
It's far from just about 30,000 more troops, it's about finally realizing that no one had a fucking clue how to deal with an insurgency, much less one in an ethnic nightmare like Iraq...
But if the Iraqi govenment themselves doesn't want the US to leave yet, then we shouldn't.
If they don't want us to leave yet, then they should pull their head out of their asses and stop acting like arrogant, obstinate douche bags hiding behind the big kid (the US military)...
Rwanda wasn't really 'ethnic cleansing,' it was out and out Holocaust style genocide. And um dude, we already did allow the ethnic cleansing of Iraq! One little oft forgotten about fact is that the Surge largely takes advantage of the massive shift in populations and the divide that has been engineered by the terrorists/militia death squads.I think if we weren't there, we'd have a level of ethnic cleansing in Iraq on the scale of 1990s Rowanda - statistically speaking, a situtation that DWARFED the number of dead so far in Iraq thus far.
The ethnic cleansing has already happened, and it happened on our watch...Which is one of the reasons why violence has gone down.
Nope. Consider Iraq largely ethnically cleansed already. Although some of the 100,000s of mostly Sunnis are beginning to return, most are now going to ethnic Sunni enclaves after being terrorized out of their mixed neighborhoods in the past three years...There are also arguments to be made with regards to political stability inthe region, world oil supply disruptions and residual wars over world oil, but I think the strongest argument to stay for the next couple years at least is the ethnic cleansing one.Comment
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Are you considering displaced Sunnis among the ethinically cleansed? It's not like it was an expressed goal of the US for different groups to be displaced (which I agree has happened) - quite the opposite. Not exactly Serbia. And without a doubt not CLOSE to comparable to "Hotel Rwanda".
i challenge the notion that a poorly planned occupation and general lawlessness is ethnic cleansing - and especially NOT the moral equivalent of a genocide.
Most numbers I have read regarding Iraqi civilian deaths range from around 80K over 5 years (if one counts direct military conflict) to up to 500K (if one counts degraded infrastructure (including additional traffic fatalities) and poor heath care and lower infant mortality. It's nothing to scoff at, but recall that Rwanda was about a MILLION machette/AK-47 deaths in a little over 100 days.
I think if we leave right now things will get worse. If we are able to keep violence down for a another year or two with the surge, then we will be able to leave knowing we give the Iraqis a shot at rule of law - an admirable goal. If they fuck it up from there, so be it, but at least we can give them a chance. If violence returns despite the surge, then it will be time to re-evaluate and consider abandoning...but knock on wood, so far so good.Last edited by steve; 01-09-2008, 12:01 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by steve
Are you considering displaced Sunnis among the ethinically cleansed? It's not like it was an expressed goal of the US for different groups to be displaced (which I agree has happened) - quite the opposite. Not exactly Serbia. And without a doubt not CLOSE to comparable to "Hotel Rwanda".
But I never said that ethnic cleansing and the Rwandan genocide were comparable...
What I am saying is that the Iraqi gov't is heavily influenced by some of the same Shiite militias that have forcibly evicted Sunnis on pain of death, or have abducted and summarily executed Iraqis in the middle of the night in order to terrorize them to leave. I'm not even blaming the US here, even though we are culpable through our ignorance.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...i challenge the notion that a poorly planned occupation and general lawlessness is ethnic cleansing - and especially NOT the moral equivalent of a genocide.
But general lawlessness and political terror go hand in hand here. They were made possible by the US occupation and the resulting vacuum of power it left, but were certainly exacerbated by the Iraqi gov'ts resulting actions.
And the political divide is kept alive by the Shiite's refusal to grant concessions to the Sunnis...
If we continue the Surge without forcing the Iraqi gov't to enter meaningful negotiations and to grant such concessions, then we are guilty of allowing American servicemen and women to die for a foreign powers' obstinacy...
I'm not sure who you're arguing with here since I've never made the contention that Iraq was just like Rwanda...Most numbers I have read regarding Iraqi civilian deaths range from around 80K over 5 years (if one counts direct military conflict) to up to 500K (if one counts degraded infrastructure (including additional traffic fatalities) and poor heath care and lower infant mortality. It's nothing to scoff at, but recall that Rwanda was about a MILLION machette/AK-47 deaths in a little over 100 days.
Iraq has however seen one of the largest population shifts since WWII and is the single largest refugee crisis that is completely ignored by the US gov't since it resulted by and large from its actions...
...the collapse of Iraq had created a refugee crisis, and that crisis was threatening to precipitate the collapse of the region. The numbers dwarfed anything that the Middle East had seen since the dislocations brought on by the establishment of Israel in 1948. In Syria, there were estimated to be 1.2 million Iraqi refugees. There were another 750,000 in Jordan, 100,000 in Egypt, 54,000 in Iran, 40,000 in Lebanon and 10,000 in Turkey. The overall estimate for the number of Iraqis who had fled Iraq was put at two million by Guterres. The number of displaced Iraqis still inside Iraq’s borders was given as 1.9 million. This would mean about 15 percent of Iraqis have left their homes.
--By NIR ROSEN, NYTimes Mag., 5/17/07Well firstly, we can't leave "right now" even if we wanted too. The Iraqis have to learn to rule their country by law as we can't do it for them, and by your rationale, the US could be there indefinitely and eating our budget because either way, we can rationalize why US troops should stay. But in the end, they may just be enabling an Iraqi gov't that is largely the source of the problem. And as I've pointed out, many believe that large numbers of US troops may indeed fuel much of the violence since they are seen as a foreign occupation force. And that, as has happened in the South, that when a general withdrawal even begins the levels of violence actually drop since the pols in the Sunni/Shiite guerrilla/militia groups cannot rationalized wanton murder to their constituencies anymore...I think if we leave right now things will get worse. If we are able to keep violence down for a another year or two with the surge, then we will be able to leave knowing we give the Iraqis a shot at rule of law - an admirable goal. If they fuck it up from there, so be it, but at least we can give them a chance. If violence returns despite the surge, then it will be time to re-evaluate and consider abandoning...but knock on wood, so far so good.
Only Iraqis can stop the violence and "win the war" by reaching an accord. It is the very underpinning of Gen. Petraeus' strategy, the one that some partisans like to conveniently ignore...
Read the book "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks for more information...Comment
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Edwards Wants Troops Out in 10 Months...da da da
In the meantime he just will keep on pirating more John Kennedy mannerisms and combing his hair just a little harder.
Have you ever noticed someone trying so hard to be someone.
Whoever becomes president is going to keep the troops there as long as he wants.
Read My Lips ....
I did not have sexual......
Kennedy in the oval office tugging on a ten foot long Cuban Cigar after the embargo.Clinton doing the same.
The embargo didn't constrain goods already in America.
I can't find anyone in this race for president that seems to have -OUR- best interests at heart.
Just a bunch -anti what was- douche bags.Comment
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You can now officially add the Baath party members to the mix.Originally posted by Nickdfresh
[B]And that, as has happened in the South, that when a general withdrawal even begins the levels of violence actually drop since the pols in the Sunni/Shiite guerrilla/militia groups - B]
OUR stubbornnes to exclude them from joining in the "reindeer games" (see purple fingers) was OUR idea. THEIR idea is to include them, making it THEIR govt.
Have you heard about the newest band of militia in Iraq called "Sunnis against Al Qadea"? It's actually catching on. It only makes sense that since they want us out (especially Black fucking Water!-There's a pretty disgusting story on them today, you should post it.) they wake up and realize what they have to do to make that happen. It's becoming less and less of us doing all the fighting, and more of them fending for themselves. Could you imagine how you would feel not knowing who to trust in your own town and being asked by the "invaders" to take up arms against what you think are "freedom fighters"? It took a while for reality to sink into these jokers, but it's happening.
Leave them with a managable situation then be gone. That's all we can do.
They will have to do the rest.
No more free oil for Exxon? BIG FUCKING DEAL. Not like the economy or gas prices are gonna change anyway.
Record profits. Pffft!Last edited by hideyoursheep; 01-13-2008, 09:18 AM.Comment
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Yeah but, keep in mind that some of those Sunnis were killing US troops not long ago...
And the whole de-Baathification plan was a complete clusterfuck since day one, when it threw tens of thousands of low-level party members, that had been required to join in order to do their profession, out of work and caused =much of the infrastructure collapse (an antagonism) that Iraq has suffered....Comment
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