Bush Wants To Destroy Civil Liberties

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Deklon
Idoits.

LMFAO :D

The people they are surveiling are having conversations with KNOWN terrorists overseas!!

FINE!! Get a fucking warrant for it, or at least allow judicial oversight so we don't go back to the days of COINTELPRO! Which was why the FISA Court was established, to prevent omnipotence seeking executive branch from fucking over their political enemies...

Again, do you honestly think the people doing the surveillance and/or wiretapping are looking at random people like you and me for no reason just for fun? Or can you least give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually trying do do the right thing for their country?

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't be surveilling enemies of the state, only that some scrutiny and oversight is needed. Is it THAT tough to figure out?? The point is that Big Brother can surveill whomever they want, with no legal recourse

[Deklon]

We can go back and forth forever and likely get nowhere. We're both lsitening to the same song. You hate it, I like it it. Like when Ed screws up a few songs and the sound quality sucks at a show. Some people come ways saying he show sucked, others say it was the best on the tour. Same show, opposite opinions.

I can honestly understand how those you who oppose Bush and everything about him feel the wat you do. You have some evidence to back up your opinions, lots of things look really bad, and the President can appear arrogant and stubborn. Combine that with some results at this point can bring you to your negative iews.

When I have these arguments at length, I frequently come away feeling no one moved much on their opinions.

However, and I again say you have legit eveidence to back up your opinons, I have evidence as well.

You may say the terrorist threat isn't real or signifiant. I say there is ample evidence to suggest it could be not only real, but beyond our imagination. What if a several nuclear devices of some kind were somehow smuggled in to this country and the guys who got them in asked any of the major terror figures what they should do? You and I know what that answer is. MANY respected and trusted people on both sides of the aisle about these types of things being at leat possible. Well, if it's at leat possile, and you're in charge, you HAVE to err on the side protection. One missed plot or plan would be all it would take to inflict unimagibable harm.

I believe some of the thing the President has done indeed look bad on their own and see how you feel that way. But those of us who support him honestly feel his intentions are good and right. I believe it could even be that he is doing some wrong things for the right reasons. And I believe he must think he has to. I feel I know a lot of people, and not one has ever mentioned they felt their privacy was being threated by the goverment. The IRA audits 1 out of 1,000 tax filers? How many people do you think are being looked at, and how many are competely innocent? If some innocent people get harrased and one major plot is foiled as a result of wiretapping (like the airliner plot), then I say the inconvenience of a few is worth the price. If the President believes that he has o do things te way he does to provide he best chance of safety, then I support that.

I can go on and on about the economy,the world hating us, and Church and Stete, but for God's sake, it's a VH website. I've opened my eyes and given careful thought to views opposite to mine, and given great though to my own opinions. I don't believe that those of you who are so hateful of the President have ever been even open to the opinion that he may be right. Lastly, I don't feel that you can accuarelty critique the Bush presidency now. It will take years or decades to find the answers.

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by Deklon
[B]
I can honestly understand how those you who oppose Bush and everything about him feel the wat you do. [B]

It's not about Bush. It's not about opinions. It's not about terrorism. It's about the Bill of Rights - either you believe in it or you don't.

Bush doesn't. You don't. That's what makes you ignorant fuckers who should be deported.

[vh rides again]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Says the police as the round you up.

You trust all police? You mean there are no innocent people in jail or that have been executed?

And what if you're not violating any laws -- but become the subject of political and economic harassment? What is your recourse?



Um, you would have gotten caught even without this policy as one would have to be a retard to even bother...



What if it were kids pranking? Should they be arrested for conspiracy then? How many resources were wasted in busting them?

And are real terrorists/bank robbers stupid enough to talk about their plans over an open line? Most, the ones that are actually competent and a threat, would never use the phone. Even Bin Laden doesn't use his phone...

BTW, this program is only supposed to be against national security threats. But already it's okay by you if they listen to everyone?



Says you. What if the Christian Right fully realizes their agenda of a more "moral" America and creates a morality police?

I think many in Wiemar Germany felt that way in 1932...

Where does it stop? At which laws are okay for the gov't to discard "in the name of security," and which are okay?

Is it okay to then call someone a "terrorist," then summarily execute them. Bury their body at Area 51 (a test range so secret, it's not clear if anyone in the FBI could actually even investigate the crime scene).

It's a slippery slope to fascism. And it begins with an ignorant citizenry willing to give up their rights for some false perception of safety. And it also begins by turning a blind eye to law violations by the executive branch, which inherently leads to the lawless state. Which is the basis of a dictatorship...

paranoia will destroy ya. get a grip sister.

[vh rides again]

Originally posted by kwame k
I’m not going to cut and paste each part of your post and make snide comments.

Truly, I’m not being a smartass, if the sentiments in your statement are what the vast majority of the voting public believe our country is ruined. Democracy will be a failed experiment. There is nothing I can say to convince you how dangerous your views are, to the American way of life.

PLEASE read up on McCarthyism here’s a quick link http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthyism.htm

Please read up on Presidents Nixon and Johnson and how they hid behind National Security.

Do an internet search about the Constitutional Violations that George W. Bush has committed but swore to defend.

U.S. Constitution (Article II, Section 1):
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

As Nickd has pointed out read about the Nazi’s and how they rose to power. If you substitute “Terrorist” for “Jews” you’ll see that the current administration is similar to the Nazi’s of the 1930’s. Using a group of boogey men Nazi’s=Jews, Bush=Terrorist as a fear tactic to erode civil liberties.

Read Bush’s statements about the bill he is threatening to veto. He wants to protect the Phone Companies from being sued from Sept 11, 2001 to now. Why is he so worried about giving immunity to the Phone Companies if they are only spying on criminals?

I’ll never change your mind about what you believe. We can disagree about Politics, Religion, and even the weather but that is only because we have Constitutional Rights. Those rights are being taken away. It’s not only one right, it’s many that are slowly being taken away bit by bit.
One Constitutional right taken away is one too many. You are not any safer. It’s just that the fear of the unknown has made you think you are safer.

Here are some definitions of terrorism

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS212US212&defl=en&q=define:terrorism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

The terrorist are winning because they are destroying our freedoms by using fear to intimidate us into submission. The statements you are making fall right into the terrorist’s goal for America. George W Bush and his Administration are Constitutional Terrorist!

The views I have and the statements I make will not be considered an American’s right to Free Speech but subversion. I will, if things keep going the way they are, be considered a Traitor to my government. Even though speaking out against our government was one of the safe guards that every Founding Father wanted to guarantee.

Read what the founders of our country said about situations like we are facing right now. They set up our system to safe guard us from Presidents like George W Bush.

Please read what Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and other Traitors said about people like George W Bush.

I honestly feel sorry for you if you are buying into this Administration’s lies.

my life is wonderful, im not a paranoid nutjob screaming the sky is falling.
people like yourself are american greatest enemy, it is in fact people like you that terrorist count on to spread fear and mistrust throughout my country.

i trust my government, ive been showed no reason not to trust it.

im a team player, not chicken little.

[vh rides again]

Originally posted by Blackflag
It's not about Bush. It's not about opinions. It's not about terrorism. It's about the Bill of Rights - either you believe in it or you don't.

Bush doesn't. You don't. That's what makes you ignorant fuckers who should be deported.

i feel the same about you, i dont want you on this team, your strategy is a losing one.

[vh rides again]

ill bet if all you fags were alive during world war 2 you would have been crying about rights then too.

when are you guys gonna give up this bitchfest, whats it gonna take?

theres always been rights vioilations and presidents walking all over the constitution during wars.

can any of you crybabys list 3 considerable constitutional rights violations that happened immediately after pearl harbor?

come on put on your thinking caps then tell me why it was ok then but not now.
oh by the way we won that war and everyone was on the same team.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Deklon
Idoits. The people they are surveiling are having conversations with KNOWN terrorists overseas!! Again, do you honestly think the people doing the surveillance and/or wiretapping are looking at random people like you and me for no reason just for fun? Or can you least give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually trying do do the right thing for their country?

the point isn't whether they are currently only using it against bad guys.


the constitution set up safeguards for a reason. the same reason that our justice system finds people guilty or not guilty. innocent is not relevant. either the government does its job of proving guilt or it doesn't. if it doesn't, you go free, whether or not you're innocent.

likewise, our constitutional protections don't just apply to those of us that are not threats. they apply to everyone.


now, does that mean that we all might be more at physical risk? yep. absolutely. but the real question is whether or not our freedoms are worth that risk. obviously, they are worth the risk to the men and women serving overseas.

[kwame k]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
the point isn't whether they are currently only using it against bad guys.


the constitution set up safeguards for a reason. the same reason that our justice system finds people guilty or not guilty. innocent is not relevant. either the government does its job of proving guilt or it doesn't. if it doesn't, you go free, whether or not you're innocent.

likewise, our constitutional protections don't just apply to those of us that are not threats. they apply to everyone.


now, does that mean that we all might be more at physical risk? yep. absolutely. but the real question is whether or not our freedoms are worth that risk. obviously, they are worth the risk to the men and women serving overseas.

Nicely put!

[kwame k]

Originally posted by Deklon
I've opened my eyes and given careful thought to views opposite to mine, and given great though to my own opinions. I don't believe that those of you who are so hateful of the President have ever been even open to the opinion that he may be right. Lastly, I don't feel that you can accuarelty critique the Bush presidency now. It will take years or decades to find the answers.

I respect that about you. I may disagree with you but at least you stand up for what you believe in.
No matter how misguided you are:D
Kidding.

I believe that our civil rights are being taken away. When I read what the framers of the constitution said about abuse of power and using fear tactics, to further a political agenda, I am amazed at how it applies toady. They really understood how dangerous a President with unlimited powers and a blatant disregard for the Constitution can be.

No one wants another 9/11, Oklahoma City bombing, USS Cole, or the first attack on the Trade Center. When we suspend a persons liberties, no matter what the justification may be, we lower ourselves to a standard that is no better than the oppressive regimes that we are fighting against.

Due process, a right to privacy, Habeas Corpus, a right to a fair and speedy trial, being able to face your accusers and the charges brought against you , and having Checks and Balances in our government should be for everyone. A higher standard should apply to our President.

Having legal recourse against Telecommunications Companies and not giving them blanket immunity is what? A Bad Thing. Go ahead and wire-tap the bad guys. Get a warrant. What is so bad about that?

What about when John Lennon was being harassed by the FBI and Immigrations. Storm Thurman wrote a memo that the government should deport him because his views were counter to that administrations goal of another 4 years in office. They used OUR government to harass a fucking musician. All for a reelection bid.
How about the blackmail and Illegal bugging of Martin Luther King?

How is making sure our government has over-sight and accountability a bad thing?

[kwame k]

Originally posted by vh rides again
ill bet if all you fags were alive during world war 2 you would have been crying about rights then too.

when are you guys gonna give up this bitchfest, whats it gonna take?

theres always been rights vioilations and presidents walking all over the constitution during wars.

can any of you crybabys list 3 considerable constitutional rights violations that happened immediately after pearl harbor?

come on put on your thinking caps then tell me why it was ok then but not now.
oh by the way we won that war and everyone was on the same team.

What the Japanese American internment camps? The violation of the Johnson Act? I now history jackass how bout you?

Show me anywhere in this thread that someone said the constitutional violations of WWII were OK.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything.
Hilter and the Nazi are the same as the terrorist we have today? Iraq is the same thing as WWII? Whatever you're smoking ease up, dude.

So according to your logic because certain administrations violated the constitution that gives the current administration the right to do so.

I‘m sure people somewhere are fucking sheep right now, so according
to you it’s OK. Bahhter up, billy goat.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by vh rides again
paranoia will destroy ya. get a grip sister.

As opposed to being paranoid about largely non-existent terrorists, panty-liner?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by vh rides again
ill bet if all you fags were alive during world war 2 you would have been crying about rights then too.

And I'd bet you were still some fat douche letting others go off and do your fighting for you...

when are you guys gonna give up this bitchfest, whats it gonna take?

Maybe ignorant posts from the grammatically fucked right wing knuckledraggers that never graduated high school giving a great lecture on constitutional law?

theres always been rights vioilations and presidents walking all over the constitution during wars.

Name one, douchewad! Name ONE example.

BTW, in case no one has informed you super-genius, we are not in a declared war with anybody...

can any of you crybabys list 3 considerable constitutional rights violations that happened immediately after pearl harbor?

Feel free to list them.

come on put on your thinking caps then tell me why it was ok then but not now.
oh by the way we won that war and everyone was on the same team.

Probably because we were in a Congressionally declared War then, and now we're some netherworld of semantic hell?

Now run along to Sen. Larry Craig's bathroom...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Deklon
Idoits.

Learn how to fucking spell, I-D-I-O-T!

The people they are surveiling are having conversations with KNOWN terrorists overseas!!

No, they're surveilling EVERYBODY conversing with anyone overseas or domestically!

If it was limited to just "known terrorists," then they'd already have warrants and it wouldn't be WARRARNTLESS surveillance, idiot!

Again, do you honestly think the people doing the surveillance and/or wiretapping are looking at random people like you and me for no reason just for fun? Or can you least give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually trying do do the right thing for their country?

I don't fucking care if they are or not. By doing so, they'd be breaking the law and no one can stop it without oversight.

And when have I ever even given that example as an objection.

Read the fucking links I provided, then get a clue...

Does your fucking boss trust you to do whatever you do without any form of supervision?

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by vh rides again
i feel the same about you, i dont want you on this team, your strategy is a losing one.

I have taken oaths to "support and defend the Constitution." Have you?