'Substantial doubt' for GM future

[swage33]

I find it hard to believe that the dealerships "will not move on the sticker price". Even in a good economy, the sticker price is always far enough above the dealer's actual cost to allow for a profit after negotiations. In this economy, particularly in Appalachia, I'd think they would be even more desperate for a sale.

Why would you assume that desperation exists here in appalachia? We have yet to feel this economic downturn...coal is still strong. Believe it or not, Ford, there is money here and more dealerships than I can count.

[Nickdfresh]

Not true FORD. I've been paying attention to the Camaro's pricing since they announced it was coming back. The V6 base price has always been around 20K. The V8 was around 30K or so...

I was considering getting a new one soon, but things will have to change for the better, and soon...

Yeah, and the V6 ain't a "gas-hog." I bet it gets around 30 mpg on the highway...

I bet the V-8 probably does mid-20s...

And Ford, don't you drive an F-150 Mr. High and Mighty?

[FORD]

And Ford, don't you drive an F-150 Mr. High and Mighty?

I barely drive at all anymore

I just wish, if they were going to bring back the name and the look of "Camaro" (or "Mustang" or "Charger" for that matter) that they would find a way to power the damn thing with 21st century technology.

The Tesla roadster is a damn good idea for a car. Electric car that looks and drives like a sports car, even capable of freeway speeds?

Outstanding idea! Downside is that (like most sports cars) its so goddamn small that I'd never fit in one. Give me a hydrogen fuel cell powered Bitchin Camaro, and I'll run all the way to the Auto Mall to buy one.

[ELVIS]

It would be $99,000 base price...

[ELVIS]

GM will survive. If nothing else, because they are "too big to fail."
We simply cannot allow GM to fail kids, for the same reason we cannot let AIG or Freddie/Fannie to fail. They're simply too big and the resulting economic meltdown would lead to a real depression...

That thinking is part of compounding the problem...

Nothing is too big to fail, including the US itself...

If you're not convinced real depression is not coming, what can you point at to stop it, the 25 jobs Obama "saved" today in Ohio ??

[hideyoursheep]

GM will survive. If nothing else, because they are "too big to fail." A failure of GM would cause absolute economic havoc in not only the US, but much of Europe and Asia as well. And it would resonate far beyond just American automotive brands as an entire network of parts and services is based on a fragile network that relies on big manufacturers like GM to keep functioning. You'd be almost as fucked if you owned an older Toyota as the parts distribution for repairs would be severally impaired if GM went under..

We simply cannot allow GM to fail kids, for the same reason we cannot let AIG or Freddie/Fannie to fail. They're simply too big and the resulting economic meltdown would lead to a real depression...

I disagree with that Nick, and I'll tell you why...

Nearly all of GM's components come from non-union plants who have contracts with other automakers as well. That wasn't always the case, but now, I can't think of one single plant that exclusively flew the GM banner and still operates in the US today. There have been 5 or 6 shut down in the past 25-30 years in this area ALONE, and that was before this big economic meltdown. GM wanted to cheapen the workforce, and moved much of it's operations to Mexico. IMO, that's about the same time that GM's quality took a shit, and they really never produced anything that could compete since. Wherever they still build cars in the US for GM, I have no idea anymore, but I know where the Hummers and SUV's are being assembled. Habla Espanol?

The same companies that produce components for GM will be obligated to produce service parts for years to come, even if GM tanks. Those same companies will also be able to continue providing for the other automakers without missing a step, and eventually keep growing with the stronger ones.

GM failing by itself would be bad, but it wouldn't be as catastrophic as they would have you believe.

Just how many jobs does GM have in the US anymore? Not many.



For Gods sake. The Malibubu might look good on the outside, but they dont fucking last! (4 cyl. models are shit!)

[hideyoursheep]

Bitchin Camaro.

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[ELVIS]

For Gods sake. The Malibubu might look good on the outside, but they dont fucking last! (4 cyl. models are shit!)

I disagree with that...

GM's quality is better than ever in terms of everything...

The new Malibu, even though I don't care for it much, is light years ahead of a malibu of just several years ago...

That's what's sad about the idea of losing an entire product line, but I don't think that will happen entirely...

But opinions like yous are common on the internet and they are based on GM's long history of poor quality that lasted up until very recently...

All brands have made a huge leap in quality, including Hyundai...

[Nickdfresh]

That thinking is part of compounding the problem...

Nothing is too big to fail, including the US itself...

If you're not convinced real depression is not coming, what can you point at to stop it, the 25 jobs Obama "saved" today in Ohio ??

I should have said "too big to let fail." The will be bailed out...

[Nickdfresh]

I disagree with that Nick, and I'll tell you why...

Nearly all of GM's components come from non-union plants who have contracts with other automakers as well. That wasn't always the case, but now, I can't think of one single plant that exclusively flew the GM banner and still operates in the US today. There have been 5 or 6 shut down in the past 25-30 years in this area ALONE, and that was before this big economic meltdown. GM wanted to cheapen the workforce, and moved much of it's operations to Mexico. IMO, that's about the same time that GM's quality took a shit, and they really never produced anything that could compete since. Wherever they still build cars in the US for GM, I have no idea anymore, but I know where the Hummers and SUV's are being assembled. Habla Espanol?

The same companies that produce components for GM will be obligated to produce service parts for years to come, even if GM tanks. Those same companies will also be able to continue providing for the other automakers without missing a step, and eventually keep growing with the stronger ones.

GM failing by itself would be bad, but it wouldn't be as catastrophic as they would have you believe.

Just how many jobs does GM have in the US anymore? Not many.



For Gods sake. The Malibubu might look good on the outside, but they dont fucking last! (4 cyl. models are shit!)

They still employ a lot of Americans and Canadians as well. And with the drug wars and coming, increasing instability in Mexico, a lot of companies are taking a second look at that option. Especially, as you said, it has an impact on quality control. I think this sort of product unevenness is actually killing Nissan, which makes some great cars, but suffers from a legendary inconsistency in fit-and-finish...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Yeah, and the V6 ain't a "gas-hog." I bet it gets around 30 mpg on the highway...

I bet the V-8 probably does mid-20s...

Not that much Nick, the V6 will probably hit 25 in highway.... The V8 will be lucky to hit 20...

So, in my mind, a Camaro V6 with 304HP, getting around 25MPH, and costing in the low 20K's is not a bad deal....

Of course, if there's gonna be no one to service the fucking thing, that's a problem....

[Von Halen]

Fuck GENERIC Motors!

The Camaro looks like shit! I was driving next to one yesterday, and it looks worse in person, than it does in the pictures. It is a disgrace to the Camaro's of '67, '68 and '69, which it was supposedly designed after. But, I guess that's what we get for having it designed in Australia (no offense Panamark) and having it built in Canada. (fuck you Canucks)

I do not believe the quality of the American cars is much of an issue anymore. Maybe for the smaller disposable ones. But, for the midsize and up, I'd say our quality is now as good as any.

I think the new Malibu is a very good looking family sedan. It is one of the few bright spots in the GM arsenal. The Silverado is the most hideous looking truck ever built. I don't know why, but the Sierra is much better looking.

GM's legacy costs are killing them.

I am in those plants everyday. There isn't a line worker in those plants, that is grateful for their job. They spend more time trying to figure out how to get out of work, than they do, doing their fucking job.

Unfortunately for Detroit, those line workers are the people that stimulated the majority of the economy in this town. When they aren't getting paid, stuff isn't getting bought.

Fuck 'em. If they fail, they fail.

[hideyoursheep]

I disagree with that...

GM's quality is better than ever in terms of everything...

What?! Better than ever? Just how long have you been driving?

The new Malibu, even though I don't care for it much, is light years ahead of a malibu of just several years ago......

I have to ask-which model Malibu are you referring to here? The ones from just a few years ago, or when the Chevelle turned?

But opinions like yous are common on the internet and they are based on GM's long history of poor quality that lasted up until very recently.........

There aren't many bigger fans of the OLD GM products than me ELVIS, but if opinions like mine are common anywhere,
it's because that's the opinion GM has given us through recent experience. Who wants to buy anything that self-destructs @ 100 k?

All brands have made a huge leap in quality, including Hyundai...

Fucking Korean garbage! The reason they offer a big warranty is because they die when it expires. See many 10-15 year old models still out there? The first year they were sold here I drove the sporty model....it topped out at 62 mph!!

[hideyoursheep]

GM's legacy costs are killing them.
I am in those plants everyday..

What plants?

What legacy costs?

Are the Mexicans now entitled to pensions?

There aren't enough GM plants left in this country to claim that as a fault!

[hideyoursheep]

And with the drug wars and coming, increasing instability in Mexico, a lot of companies are taking a second look at that option....

How ironic that to escape the union worker, they opted for the 'no drug test' employee!