GM, Amtrak and an Increasingly Fascist America

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  • ELVIS
    Banned
    • Dec 2003
    • 44120

    GM, Amtrak and an Increasingly Fascist America

    June 8, 2009

    by Ron Paul



    Last week, General Motors finally declared bankruptcy. Many in government thought $20 billion in taxpayer dollars would save the company, but as predicted, it only postponed the inevitable. The government will dump another $30 billion into GM and take a 60 percent controlling interest for it. Public officials are now involving themselves in tactical business decisions such as where GM’s headquarters should move and what kind of cars it will build.

    The promise that this is temporary and will eventually be profitable is supposed to ease the American people into accepting this arrangement, but it is of little comfort to those who remember similar promises when the American taxpayers bought Amtrak. After three years, government was supposed to be out of the passenger rail business. 40 years and billions of dollars later, the government is still operating Amtrak at a loss, despite the fact that they have created a monopoly by making it illegal to compete with Amtrak. Imagine what they can now do to what is left of the great American auto industry!

    In a truly free market, GM would get your money one way and one way only – by selling you a car you want, at a price you are willing to pay. Instead, the government is giving public money to a private company in spite of the market signals it has been sending. Throwing money at GM does not stop it from being an engine of wealth destruction; on the contrary, it simply gives it more wealth to destroy.

    Had it been allowed to fail naturally, the profitable pieces of GM would have been bought up and put to good use by now. The laid off employees would likely have found new jobs and all that capital would be in private hands, reinvested in companies that produce products demanded by consumers. Instead, we are all poorer now.

    Political pressure, rather than the rule of law, is deciding how to divide up the remains of GM. The bondholders had billions in retirement savings invested in the company, and though they were entitled to nearly three times as much as the United Auto Workers, the bondholders were left with just a 10 percent stake compared to the union’s 17.5 percent stake. For their 60 percent stake, taxpayers have a future of constant bailouts to look forward to.

    Comingling public control of private business is known as fascism. While today’s politicians may feel emboldened with all their new power, history will only repeat itself as all this collapses on itself. It is the height of hubris for bureaucrats and politicians to attempt to control the market and the free will of the American people. In the end, the market always wins out. Maybe one day future generations will wise up and allow free markets to function and thrive without the albatross of government around its neck. For now, it looks like those in charge have not learned the lessons of the past, and have doomed us to repeat those mistakes once again.



  • FORD
    ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

    • Jan 2004
    • 59101

    #2
    Funny how we never heard the word FASCIST coming from any right wingers during the last 8 years (or any of the previous BCE administrations before that) when the people who actually funded the original fascists were in charge.

    Without ever being elected their last time through, no less.

    Now having said that, I'll also say that Ron Paul needs to read a dictionary. When government owns businesses, that's socialism. When business owns government, it's fascism.

    GM should be a private business. Amtrak should not. A national high speed rail system should be part of public infrastructure. So should energy, healthcare, and a REAL national bank (as opposed to the "Federal Reserve" which in reality is neither.)
    Last edited by FORD; 06-08-2009, 04:24 PM.
    Eat Us And Smile

    Cenk For America 2024!!

    Justice Democrats


    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

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    • ELVIS
      Banned
      • Dec 2003
      • 44120

      #3
      Originally posted by FORD
      When government owns businesses, that's socialism. When business owns government, it's fascism.

      Right now, we have both...

      GM should be a private business. Amtrak should not. A national high speed rail system should be part of public infrastructure. So should energy, healthcare, and a REAL national bank (as opposed to the "Federal Reserve" which in reality is neither.)

      Any public ANYTHING should be state sponsored, not Federal! Thea's not what the federal government was created for...

      And why do we need a national bank ??


      Comment

      • Guitar Shark
        ROTH ARMY SUPREME
        • Jan 2004
        • 7579

        #4
        Seriously? We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression due to lack of appropriate regulatory oversight and you are asking why we need a national bank?
        ROTH ARMY MILITIA


        Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
        Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

        Comment

        • ELVIS
          Banned
          • Dec 2003
          • 44120

          #5
          A national bank to do what ??

          Comment

          • Guitar Shark
            ROTH ARMY SUPREME
            • Jan 2004
            • 7579

            #6
            Uh, ensure the stability of the entire financial system when the market is unable to do so on its own?
            ROTH ARMY MILITIA


            Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
            Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

            Comment

            • LoungeMachine
              DIAMOND STATUS
              • Jul 2004
              • 32576

              #7
              Sometimes ELVIS scares me.

              Originally posted by Kristy
              Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
              Originally posted by cadaverdog
              I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

              Comment

              • Seshmeister
                ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                • Oct 2003
                • 35384

                #8
                Originally posted by ELVIS
                [url=http://www.ronpaul.com/]The promise that this is temporary and will eventually be profitable is supposed to ease the American people into accepting this arrangement, but it is of little comfort to those who remember similar promises when the American taxpayers bought Amtrak. After three years, government was supposed to be out of the passenger rail business. 40 years and billions of dollars later, the government is still operating Amtrak at a loss, despite the fact that they have created a monopoly by making it illegal to compete with Amtrak. Imagine what they can now do to what is left of the great American auto industry!
                To be fair not many countries have managed to have a decent unsubsidized private railway. Plus if you think about it then government taxes pay for roads so why shouldn't they pay for train tracks especially since there is less cost from accidents and pollution compared to cars.

                Comment

                • Kristy
                  DIAMOND STATUS
                  • Aug 2004
                  • 16471

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ELVIS

                  Comingling public control of private business is known as fascism.
                  Nope. Not buying into it. Having the Rethuglicans throwing around beleaguered words like "fascism" and "socialism" was bad enough but now Paul with all of his moderate retarded hodgepodge rhetoric has hitched his wagon to the same post. To say it's a free market by having GM sell [me] a car I want at a price I want goes to show how incredibly stupid Ron Paul is. GM has yet to build me a car I want much less would ever want to buy and if he really knew shit about how a free market works then he's also realize that's it's highly competitive.

                  I'm still looking to buy a new(er) car and there is NOTHING in the GM or, really, any American manufactured inventory that interest me in the slightest. Just by the way Chrysler shit on their employees and dealers only proves that don't care about their customers either. Paul must think Americans are that gullible to buy a mediocre product simply because it's American rather than look for an import with better quality standards.

                  GM over time destroyed themselves by being ignorant to what a free market offers. They were/are so far removed from what the consumers wants & needs when it came to buying an automobile like durability, low-maintenance, economy, safety, warranty standards, re-sell value, etc but instead offered John Mellencamp singing "this is our country" to a embarrassing pseudo-patriotism montage of the flag, baseball games and apple pie. Don't know about you, but that really doesn't tell me shit about the workmanship of their product.

                  Having the government come in with billions of dollars to save GM's ass and in homage telling it to get it's act together if it is going to survive is not fascism. Perhaps Paul should try defining a word before using it. For far too long have the big wigs of these corporations had it too easy with too much power with little outside coaching on what the American public demands from a car in these days and times. No wonder the imports kicked their ass over the past 10 or so years in sales and if that isn't free market at work Paul then I don't know what is.

                  Comment

                  • ELVIS
                    Banned
                    • Dec 2003
                    • 44120

                    #10
                    GM (which I never cared much for their products, besides the newer stuff), Chrysler and FORD all made quality vehicles along with the Japanese model, anything...

                    The foreign companies don't have UAW healthcare costs for retired empolyees and sold their cars under cost ON PURPOSE for years to undermine the US auto industry...

                    Paul was 100% correct when he said GM should have been allowed to fail on it's own...

                    I could go further, but these are NOT federal issues, Period!

                    Comment

                    • ELVIS
                      Banned
                      • Dec 2003
                      • 44120

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Guitar Shark
                      Uh, ensure the stability of the entire financial system when the market is unable to do so on its own?
                      So, it's stable now ??

                      Maybe for you, but what about the millions of young people entering the market ??

                      Comment

                      • Kristy
                        DIAMOND STATUS
                        • Aug 2004
                        • 16471

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ELVIS
                        GM (which I never cared much for their products, besides the newer stuff), Chrysler and FORD all made quality vehicles along with the Japanese model, anything...

                        The foreign companies don't have UAW healthcare costs for retired empolyees and sold their cars under cost ON PURPOSE for years to undermine the US auto industry...

                        Paul was 100% correct when he said GM should have been allowed to fail on it's own...
                        Then why were Japanese and German cars out-selling American if quality wasn't an issue? Are you sure about the "undermining" part? Could it be that the imports were just better suited? In fact so better suited that the heads at GM, Ford, etc continually lobbied for higher tariffs therefore having the imports selling under cost in order to stay competitive?

                        Paul is right when he said GM should fail on their own but to call their bailout "fascism" is juvenile.

                        Comment

                        • Nickdfresh
                          SUPER MODERATOR

                          • Oct 2004
                          • 49330

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ELVIS
                          GM (which I never cared much for their products, besides the newer stuff), Chrysler and FORD all made quality vehicles along with the Japanese model, anything...

                          The foreign companies don't have UAW healthcare costs for retired empolyees and sold their cars under cost ON PURPOSE for years to undermine the US auto industry...

                          Paul was 100% correct when he said GM should have been allowed to fail on it's own...

                          I could go further, but these are NOT federal issues, Period!
                          What a massive oversimplification. Firstly, when we talk about "Japanese cars," we're really only talking about Honda, Toyota, and MAYBE Nissan (Datsun) and Subaru. The Japanese have made their fair share of utter shit and companies such as Mitsubishi don't even really make money selling cars in the States and are little more than a tax write-off for what is actually a huge Japanese bank. Makes such as Daihatsu, Isuzu have failed to an extent and Mazda would have folded if it weren't for Ford and they still grapple with quality control problems. And you couldn't give me a Suzuki junkbox for free.

                          The reason Honda and Toyota make better cars is that they actually listened to the American engineering genius Edward Deming after WWII who told them they would starve and die if they didn't make high quality products and develop superior, efficient manufacturing since Japan had no natural resources and everyone in Asia hated them. So they set up a rigorous focus on quality control and a system where they could adapt quickly to the market...



                          In any case, the Japanese, or at least Honda, DID NOT SELL their cars under sticker and are historically one of the most profitable companies in terms of how much they make on each car sold. In fact, I know an old car salesman that sold the Honda Accord when they first came to the US in 1977. Consumer Reports ranked the car very highly and praised it as the only alternative to shitty American offerings, such as the Chevy Vega that had an aluminum block that literally cracked open after so many miles and died. The Accord was on a five to eight month waiting list. The Buffalo area dealership actually had cars on hand in five months, so he would sell cars to people in Boston, MA and NYC because they had to wait eight months at their local dealerships. The Hondas were sold at $1500 ABOVE THE MSRP STICKER PRICE! Furthermore, when the customer took delivery, they had to fork over more money and allow the dealership (or stealership ) to perform every possible bullshit service such as rust-proofing, Simonizing, and interior Scotch Guarding...

                          Dude, it wasn't about dumping cheap cars in the US. The Japanese handed Detroit their asses because they brought high quality products into a market the US manufacturers scoffed at and then paid a very heavy price for once the gas crisis' began to erupt...

                          That is not to say that there are some very good cars the American nameplates have made and they have done some things right. And right now, I'd certainly look at a new Euro-influenced Ford over the boring as fuck Toyota appliances with wheels. But there is a reason for that "perception" of quality. So, don't be an apologist for some of the cavalcade of the dumbest fucking assclowns ever to run a company (GM). They were the same assholes that thought it would be cheaper to allow people to burn to death in their 1970s vintage pickup trucks and pay out lawsuits rather than to actually issue a recall and simple fix that could have saved hundreds of lives...
                          Last edited by Nickdfresh; 06-08-2009, 08:24 PM.

                          Comment

                          • FORD
                            ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                            • Jan 2004
                            • 59101

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ELVIS

                            The foreign companies don't have UAW healthcare costs for retired empolyees and sold their cars under cost ON PURPOSE for years to undermine the US auto industry...
                            And the solution to that problem, is single-payer health care. Not union busting.
                            Eat Us And Smile

                            Cenk For America 2024!!

                            Justice Democrats


                            "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                            Comment

                            • Big Train
                              Full Member Status

                              • Apr 2004
                              • 4013

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Guitar Shark
                              Uh, ensure the stability of the entire financial system when the market is unable to do so on its own?
                              Even though numerous large banks are literally waiting for the government to take their TARP money back that they don't need (and are willing to pay back WITH interest)? That part of the financial system is quite stable. If only the government would allow them to give it back. Take that money and use it on some hot "Shovel ready" job action, take the steam out the 2 million job losses in this year.

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