Corvette ZR1 Races an FA-18

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  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49211

    #31
    Originally posted by letsrock
    The f105 lost over half of its produced airplanes during Vietnam.
    And Yes the US took massive aiplane casulaties during Vietnam.
    But the catch is this. There was virtually no dog fighting.
    So that number is not relevant.
    The US lost airplanes were from surface to air missles.
    Um, the F-105 didn't lose "half" they're number. The losses were high, relatively speaking, as they were low flying bullet magnets. But that %-number is an exaggeration that would be unsustainable. The pilots themselves, most of whom already hated flying the "Thud" (nicknamed so because that was the sound it made when hitting the ground), would have mutinied and Congress would have halted the use after an inevitable investigation if the losses had been that high. They weren't...

    The US did suffer some significant losses on Vietnam and the numbers of shot down aircraft and the tonnages of bombs dropped (more than in all of WWII) can be staggering. But they were made good without any real threat to Western national security, which is sort of staggering in its own right...

    Most losses were suffered from anti-aircraft artillery, with sophisticated Soviet made missiles such as the SA-2 being a far greater threat than the MIGs of North Vietnamese Air Force, being second. However, there were some epic dogfights and the North Vietnamese, who usually fired their missiles and ran, did have some exceptional pilots who were aces.

    I recall there was a classic two hour dogfight between a US Navy F-4 Phantom, whose pilot had totally misjudged and underestimated his enemy, and a North Vietnamese ace flying a MIG-21. Thinking the NVAF pilot would fire and run giving him an easy kill, the Navy pilot (who might have been the defrocked CA Senator Randy "Duke" Cunningham) was almost shot down as his foe completely confounded him and turned back towards him after feigning a retreat.

    The F-4 pilot only was able to shoot him down after the NVAF pilot, Nguyen Toon, made only a slightest of mistakes...

    Nguyen Toon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    More:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Cunningham

    During his service, Cunningham and his Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) "Irish" Driscoll became the only Navy aces in the Vietnam War, flying an F-4 Phantom from aboard aircraft carriers, and recording five confirmed kills. He was one of the early graduates of the Navy's TOPGUN school that taught dogfighting techniques to F-4 Phantom pilots and RIOs.

    It has been alleged that Cunningham downed a MiG-17 piloted by North Vietnam Air Force fighter ace Col. Nguyen Toon, aka, "Colonel Tomb". Although "Col. Toon" was an American-manufactured myth, several Vietnamese pilots were superb dogfighters, and the North Vietnamese Air Force helped perpetuate the myth of "Colonel Toon", or "Tomb".[8] "Colonel Toon" was not only skilled but unorthodox, as Cunningham found out, when the Navy pilot made an elementary tactical error engaging him. The resulting dogfight became extended. Cunningham climbed steeply, and the MiG pilot surprised Cunningham by climbing as well. Remembering his TOPGUN training, Cunningham finally forced the MiG out ahead of him and destroyed it with an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile.
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 07-07-2009, 04:56 PM.

    Comment

    • Igosplut
      ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

      • Jan 2004
      • 2794

      #32
      Slightly off into left field, but the best documentary (Vietnam/plane-wise) bar none was "Little Dieter Needs to Fly". The Gar=Wiki link does not do it justice. Absolutely a riveting film...
      Chainsaw Muthuafucka

      Comment

      • ELVIS
        Banned
        • Dec 2003
        • 44120

        #33
        Never saw it...

        Comment

        • stringfelowhawk
          Foot Soldier
          • Mar 2004
          • 559

          #34
          Drink to tha foam!

          Freakin Navy pilots suck.................

          All they have to do is land on a little speck 4 1/2 acres big in the middle of 3 million square miles of rolling ocean and come to a complete stop before going for a chilly swim and having to dodge 4 twenty-two foot props.

          If they're lucky enough to be very good at that for a long time then NASA might let em fly the space shuttle.

          Of course if you're unfortunate enough to miss every arresting wire and fail to "touch and go", hopefully you bail out to one side or the other cause it takes a mile to stop a carrier.



          I hope the sarcasm in that post isn't missed so some fool can accost me for saying such a thing about Navy pilots. Especially coming from a former swabbie.
          Visit my online store http://www.tripleclicks.com/12395755 or get your own http://www.sfi4.com/12395755/FREE

          Comment

          • hideyoursheep
            ROTH ARMY ELITE
            • Jan 2007
            • 6351

            #35
            Allright..

            How many Hellfires can the Vette carry?


            Ha!

            Comment

            • BITEYOASS
              ROTH ARMY ELITE
              • Jan 2004
              • 6530

              #36
              Like any sports car can beat a combat aircraft, give me a fuckin break! He didn't even have that Hornet at full throttle. You should see how fast those USMC Hornets take off in Iraq, they slam that throttle all the way in order to lessen the chance of getting hit by indirect fire.

              Comment

              • letsrock
                Veteran
                • Mar 2007
                • 1595

                #37
                Point is the F105 took a severe beat down during Vietnam.

                Comment

                • letsrock
                  Veteran
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 1595

                  #38
                  This is the only production number i could find.
                  833

                  The F-105D all-weather strike fighter and the two-place F-105F dual-purpose trainer-fighter were also built before F-105 production (833 aircraft) ended in 1964. No "C" or "E" series were produced and "Gs" were modified "Fs" outfitted with extensive electronic countermeasure equipment. F-105G aircraft were nicknamed "Wild Weasels" and specialized in jamming enemy radar and destroying surface-to-air missile sites.

                  Ask.com Search Engine - Better Web Search

                  Comment

                  • letsrock
                    Veteran
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 1595

                    #39
                    How many lost during Vietnam?
                    see below.

                    f the total 753 F-105D/Fs manufactured by Republic, 393 were lost to various causes over Southeast Asia. The aircraft's familiar nickname refers to the sound of an F-105 smacking into the earth. In 1966 alone, 124 F-105s plummeted from the sky, many of them onto "Thud Ridge," an infamous mountain range bristling with antiaircraft armaments just outside Hanoi.

                    Ok so 393 isnt 1/2 of 833. Its at least greater than 45%.
                    I dont do math. But i think you get the point. It took an ass kicking.

                    link:
                    Amazon.com: F-105 Thunderchief: Workhorse of the Vietnam War: Dennis R. Jenkins: Books

                    Comment

                    • Nickdfresh
                      SUPER MODERATOR

                      • Oct 2004
                      • 49211

                      #40
                      Originally posted by letsrock
                      How many lost during Vietnam?
                      see below.

                      f the total 753 F-105D/Fs manufactured by Republic, 393 were lost to various causes over Southeast Asia. The aircraft's familiar nickname refers to the sound of an F-105 smacking into the earth. In 1966 alone, 124 F-105s plummeted from the sky, many of them onto "Thud Ridge," an infamous mountain range bristling with antiaircraft armaments just outside Hanoi.

                      Ok so 393 isnt 1/2 of 833. Its at least greater than 45%.
                      I dont do math. But i think you get the point. It took an ass kicking.

                      link:
                      Amazon.com: F-105 Thunderchief: Workhorse of the Vietnam War: Dennis R. Jenkins: Books
                      The F-105 was designed primarily for low-level interdiction and its low-altitude speed was its greatest asset when dealing with Soviet-made MiG-17 and MiG-21 fighters. The Thunderchief's highly loaded wing was excellent for speed and aerodynamic stability but not for sustained turns in a dogfight. Nevertheless, the F-105 managed 27.5 officially credited air-to-air victories against North Vietnamese aircraft at the cost of 17 aircraft lost to enemy fighters (North Vietnamese pilots claimed to have shot down an additional 23 F-105s but none have been confirmed by USAF).[6] All victories were against MiG-17s. A total of 24.5 were shot down with cannon fire (one victory was shared with an F-4), and three with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles.[7] F-4 Phantoms were tasked with escorting the Thuds from enemy fighters, but they lacked the internal gun and ranging gunsight of the Thunderchief until late in the war.
                      ...

                      Unfortunately, the low-altitude attacks and dive bombings brought the F-105s into the range of North Vietnamese anti-aircraft fire; the attrition rates were so high that the USAF began experiencing shortages of combat-ready aircraft. A total of 382 aircraft were lost in Southeast Asia, 320 of those in combat. The vast majority of losses were the result of enemy ground fire. Of the 610 single-seat F-105Ds built, 283 were shot down and 52 lost operationally. Of the 143 F-105F/G two-seaters, 37 were shot down and 10 lost operationally (one "Ryan's Raiders" night interdiction aircraft and one Combat Martin jammer without a back-seat WSO were lost in combat, the other 45 losses were Wild Weasel aircraft).[1]
                      F-105 Thunderchief - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      The USAF lost 320 in combat, and roughly 62 to other causes such as mechanical failure and design problems with the air intake. However, as the first para indicates, there was indeed dogfighting that went on during the Vietnam War. It should also be noted that while around 40% were lost in combat, the total number produced is low at only 833 somewhat skewing that statistic.

                      Vietnam showed that USAF and USN designs conceptualized during the 1950s were deeply flawed and production was shut down somewhat early and the US was already planning its next generation of dogfighters such as the F-15 and F-14 Tomcat. It should be said that the F-105 was successful in the end and flew until 1984 in a "Wild Weasel" anti-SAM role, but the fact that it was created out of a tunnel vision of a singular mission focus was a major weakness that was hard to overcome....

                      Comment

                      • Seshmeister
                        ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                        • Oct 2003
                        • 35203

                        #41
                        320 is a fuck of a lot though isn't it when fighting against a crappy little country like North Vietnam?

                        Compare to the gulf wars. Something very significant happened and that was Dick Lord!

                        Comment

                        • letsrock
                          Veteran
                          • Mar 2007
                          • 1595

                          #42
                          I think you get the point.

                          Comment

                          • letsrock
                            Veteran
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 1595

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Seshmeister
                            320 is a fuck of a lot though isn't it when fighting against a crappy little country like North Vietnam?

                            Compare to the gulf wars. Something very significant happened and that was Dick Lord!
                            And thats just one model of airplane, it doesnt include:
                            F-4
                            A-4
                            B-52
                            C-141
                            C-130
                            B-58
                            A-7

                            and many others.

                            Comment

                            • Nickdfresh
                              SUPER MODERATOR

                              • Oct 2004
                              • 49211

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Seshmeister
                              320 is a fuck of a lot though isn't it when fighting against a crappy little country like North Vietnam?
                              Yes. But then, that crappy little country was armed with first line Soviet surface to air weapons. Fuck, sometimes there were Soviets manning their first line soviet weapons...

                              I don't want to get into it here, because I begin to sound like some revisionist pro-War hawk, which I am not. But it has been argued that the air war over Vietnam was relentlessly politicized to the degree that targets such as North Vietnamese air bases were not attacked early on and air defenses were deliberately avoided for fear of killing Soviets, Chinese, and Eastern Europeans...

                              Keep in mind though, those F-105s were very cheap to produce as were most US aircraft of the day in comparison with the third generation jet fighters such as the F-15, F-16, A-10, F-14, F-18, etc...


                              Compare to the gulf wars. Something very significant happened and that was Dick Lord!
                              Right. The US, and hence NATO, learned that sophisticated fighters featuring top of the line electronics, maneuverability, and versatility were what was necessary. In many respects, the Gulf War was the culmination of lessons learned in Vietnam and during the Arab-Israeli Wars...
                              Last edited by Nickdfresh; 07-10-2009, 08:21 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Nickdfresh
                                SUPER MODERATOR

                                • Oct 2004
                                • 49211

                                #45
                                Originally posted by letsrock
                                And thats just one model of airplane, it doesnt include:
                                F-4
                                A-4
                                B-52
                                C-141
                                C-130
                                B-58
                                A-7

                                and many others.
                                Don't forget the choppers...

                                Comment

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