The union's angle..

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  • Big Train
    Full Member Status

    • Apr 2004
    • 4013

    The union's angle..

    I've been wondering about this, what with all the discussion of "plants" and craziness at town halls. So they don't have to suffer with single payer and they get a 10 billion dollar kickback. 10 Billion isn't a bad haul...Hoffa (Sr.) would be proud.
    Hot Air » Blog Archive » Why unions are “Astroturfing” health-care town halls

    After enraged constituents started showing up at Congressional town-hall forums to oppose ObamaCare, the unions acted quickly to counterdemonstrate on behalf of the Democratic agenda item. In at least one case, union representatives used violence to intimidate and harrass ObamaCare opponents. The same union, which represents a large percentage of government workers and would be presumably immune from any health-care reform action, issued memos demanding volunteers to “drown out” opposition to ObamaCare. But why?

    This report from the Detroit Free Press explains that the unions have a good reason — actually, ten billion good reasons:

    Antilabor forces say it’s welfare for the UAW and Democrats’ union allies. Labor supporters say it falls short of what’s needed as tens of thousands of union members are pushed into early retirement as employers cut back health care coverage.

    They’re both talking about a $10-billion provision tucked deep inside thousands of pages of health care overhaul bills that could help the UAW’s retiree health-care plan and other union-backed plans.

    It would see the government — at least temporarily — pay 80 cents on the dollar to corporate and union insurance plans for claims between $15,000 and $90,000 for retirees age 55 to 64. …

    Greg Mourad of the National Right to Work Committee called it “a shameless case of political payback,” saying Democrats and President Barack Obama are trying “to force the rest of us to pay billions to cover those unions’ health care.”

    The money will be yet another bailout of Detroit, although the Obama administration and the Democrats have it flying under the radar, buried in HR3200:

    Thanks to Detroit’s twin auto bankruptcies and other concessions, the UAW’s voluntary employee benefit association, or VEBA, had to take stock of unknown value for $24 billion in claims, while adding thousands of early retirees to its rolls.

    Outside experts estimate the funds have about 30 cents in cash for every dollar of future claims, with no guarantee of what its stock assets will be worth. Lance Wallach, a New York-based VEBA expert, says if the funds “don’t get something, they’re out of business in 12 years.” …

    Key provisions in House and Senate proposals set aside $10 billion to pay some claims for early retirees covered by employers and VEBAs, before other cost-saving measures kick in. Critics call it a union giveaway, but the union says the money would keep companies from further slashing coverage.
    That’s explicitly a bailout. It comes on the heels of tens of billions of dollars committed to GM and Chrysler, as well as politically-motivated bankruptcies that violated the rights of senior creditors in favor of the unions. The unions have overcommitted and underresourced their health plans, and now Congress wants to surreptitiously bail them out from bankruptcy — all while making them more or less immune from the restrictions in the rest of the bill.

    That $10,000,000,000 bailout certainly gives the unions a big incentive to crack heads and intimidate people into retreat on ObamaCare, doesn’t it? That’s the granddaddy of all Astroturfing efforts.
  • Big Train
    Full Member Status

    • Apr 2004
    • 4013

    #2
    Care to tell my why you object to this Ford or are you just going to give it the thumbs down? What part of this isn't fact? Who are the "Plants" who wrote the bill? How is the BCE involved? What's Prescott's cut?

    Comment

    • FORD
      ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

      • Jan 2004
      • 59302

      #3
      There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt. Germany and Japan got decent health care plans after World War II.

      The US was supposed to get one at the same time, but Repuke obstructionists blocked it then too. So the Germans and the Japanese went on to make decent cars, not having to worry about administering their employee's health care plans, and they're still doing well.

      Now obviously the Detroit auto companies have other issues, but the health care of their employees and retirees is definitely a big slice of their financial pizza. Naturally, the corporatist response to that is "Well then the goddamn unions should give up their health care". Yeah right.... in exchange for what? Because this country (unlike the rest of the fucking civilized world) doesn't have any other options.

      Yet.
      Eat Us And Smile

      Cenk For America 2024!!

      Justice Democrats


      "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

      Comment

      • WACF
        Crazy Ass Mofo
        • Jan 2004
        • 2920

        #4
        One of the issues I have with " employee plans" is that when you are no longer employed for whatever reason...downsizing, retirement...whatever....the plan in most cases disapears.

        Right now I enjoy a great health plan for drugs, dental ect....it will not last forever.

        I like the fact my healthcare is dealt with regardless of my status in the workforce.

        My dad is a great example...had a heart attack at 50....then again at 55 with triple bypass...went off on long term disability at 61.

        No insurance plan will touch him.

        That God for our healthcare.

        Comment

        • Big Train
          Full Member Status

          • Apr 2004
          • 4013

          #5
          Originally posted by FORD
          There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt.

          Yes, they sell products people actually are willing to buy. We aren't.

          When times were good and they were selling cars, the autoworkers got fantastic health care plans. Even for a long time when they were not selling anything.

          So I read your take is it's in the economies best interest to give everyone health care so their employer doesn't have to bear the burden. Which would be great if that burden was elminated, not redirected and added to by giving it to the government.

          Comment

          • sadaist
            TOASTMASTER GENERAL
            • Jul 2004
            • 11625

            #6
            Originally posted by FORD
            There's a reason why Mercedes and Toyota aren't going bankrupt.
            Toyota Expects Its First Loss in 70 Years



            Toyota Losing More Money Than GM


            Toyota Losing More Money Than GM | theledger.com | The Ledger | Lakeland, FL
            “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

            Comment

            • FORD
              ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

              • Jan 2004
              • 59302

              #7
              Well, as I said, the auto makers have other issues. The fact that Detroit made nothing but gas hog SUV's for most of the last decade, being one of them, and the fact that the BCE's damage to the economy killed all car sales, including those to the foreign owned companies, is obviously going to affect them.

              But let's not get off track here or anything. (Funny how you Repukes always want to change the subject)
              Eat Us And Smile

              Cenk For America 2024!!

              Justice Democrats


              "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

              Comment

              • Nickdfresh
                SUPER MODERATOR

                • Oct 2004
                • 49390

                #8
                As opposed to the health care industry's "angle?"

                Less insured. Higher costs. Less national return for far more money spent?

                Comment

                • Big Train
                  Full Member Status

                  • Apr 2004
                  • 4013

                  #9
                  As opposed indeed. Previous to this, you would have said bullshit. But now it has been put forth. Big pharma is greased in this bill (see my other thread) as well as Big labor. Once we figure out what bit ins. gets out of it, it will be completely exposed.

                  They have an "interest" in this that they would rather not admit. Which, when you want to get into discussions of plants and Town halls, they would really rather not admit.

                  They have just as much skin in the game as anyone. A 10 Billion grab if you will.

                  I'm still trying to figure out the magic savings that are coming from this bill where all I see are cost centers. I suppose that is the "magic" of it.

                  Comment

                  • sadaist
                    TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 11625

                    #10
                    Originally posted by FORD
                    Detroit made nothing but gas hog SUV's for most of the last decade, being one of them,
                    You mean the ones that millions of middle class families drive? Have you seen a grocery store/shopping mall/elementary school parking lot in the last ten years?

                    Business 101 - Sell a product that consumers want.
                    “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

                    Comment

                    • FORD
                      ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                      • Jan 2004
                      • 59302

                      #11
                      The SUV's (especially the higher end ones) were bought more by Republican tax cheaters than they were by middle class families, due to an obscure tax loophole intended to help family farmers buy tractors and trucks for their businesses. The tax break is for vehicles of a certain weight. Ordinary passenger cars wouldn't make the cut. But these behemoth SUV's did.

                      Now that there are legitimate tax breaks for hybrids (not to mention the ridiculous price of gas) that scenario has changed a little, but the foreign owned mfg's got one Hell of a head start in the hybrid game. Of course GM chicken-shitted themselves out of the opportunity to dominate the green car market when they pulled the plug (literally) on their pre-Chimp era electric car.
                      Eat Us And Smile

                      Cenk For America 2024!!

                      Justice Democrats


                      "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                      Comment

                      • sadaist
                        TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 11625

                        #12
                        Originally posted by FORD
                        The SUV's (especially the higher end ones) were bought more by Republican tax cheaters than they were by middle class families,
                        Weird. California is predominantly Democrat too. Especially the coastal cities. All I see are these SUV's. These "Republican tax cheaters" are doing a great job disguising themselves as Democrat voting soccer moms.
                        “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

                        Comment

                        • Big Train
                          Full Member Status

                          • Apr 2004
                          • 4013

                          #13
                          So I guess a side ethics question. Is it "OK" for the union to take a bribe, err incentive, from this legislation, where you would condemn Ins. or Big Pharma from doing the same?

                          Comment

                          • Nickdfresh
                            SUPER MODERATOR

                            • Oct 2004
                            • 49390

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Big Train
                            As opposed indeed. Previous to this, you would have said bullshit. But now it has been put forth. Big pharma is greased in this bill (see my other thread) as well as Big labor. Once we figure out what bit ins. gets out of it, it will be completely exposed.

                            They have an "interest" in this that they would rather not admit. Which, when you want to get into discussions of plants and Town halls, they would really rather not admit.

                            They have just as much skin in the game as anyone. A 10 Billion grab if you will.

                            I'm still trying to figure out the magic savings that are coming from this bill where all I see are cost centers. I suppose that is the "magic" of it.
                            Pharma has also forked over $80 billion thus far because even they realize there's not much use in selling drugs no one can afford. I do resent the way they've tried to buy out any sort of bargaining clauses preventing drugs by the lowest bidder. But at the same time, which "bill" is this "bill" as there are more than one?

                            And the magic savings are being slowly raped out of this bill special interests holding it up and minimizing any real reform. Instead of getting this out of the way in a couple of years, unfortunately it will take several years of evolution towards a more workable system. But that's fine I guess...

                            Comment

                            • Big Train
                              Full Member Status

                              • Apr 2004
                              • 4013

                              #15
                              Well, a real and meanginful start would be the following:

                              1. We wait on all this town hall business until the "real" bill emerges. That has caused the drop in the President's ratings and the trust of the American people to be eroded as he never had the message entirely under control and unified. The GOP pounced on it as they should to great effect.

                              2. If you go for single payer, the concept of the "lowest bidder" is somewhat moot.

                              3. I completely disagree to pass through a system and say it's fine and work on it later. That was the same thinking applied to NAFTA with more than spotty results.

                              Comment

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