Wells Fargo exec. moved into beach home surrendered to bank by Madoff-duped couple

[GAR]

stupid thing to do...but illegal or unethical? Not in the least.

I think it was a smart thing to do, because she's black.

It kinda shakes up those fucking Jews here in the neighborhood that my asshole neighbor doesn't like!

And it's only illegal if she fails to list an equitable value for her weekends on her taxes.. I mean it looks to me like a fair perk for performance, so who cares?

Occupying a foreclosed home has its' own curses, but so do pawnshop guitars: whattya gonna do.. meh sowwatt

[Nitro Express]

Sure, they should sell it, if nothing from a PR perspective. But illegal if they don't? No conceivable way. And that the previous owner was a Madoff victim is completely irrelevant.

You pretty much nailed down a huge problem today. People think that just because it's legal it's ethical. I see this all the time in business. You can fuck over people in legal ways and everyone thinks this is fine as long as it won't get you in trouble in court. So this way of thinking is what brought our society to what it is. It's not whether it's right or wrong, it's whether you are going to get caught.

[Blackflag]

You pretty much nailed down a huge problem today. People think that just because it's legal it's ethical. I see this all the time in business. You can fuck over people in legal ways and everyone thinks this is fine as long as it won't get you in trouble in court. So this way of thinking is what brought our society to what it is. It's not whether it's right or wrong, it's whether you are going to get caught.

But that's also a double-edged sword. Other people have the idea that ethics are the same as morality or fairness, and people should just have an internal sense of what's ethical or not. That's not true, either. There are fairly precise definitions of what's ethical and what isn't.

Things can be legal, but unethical. Things can also be amoral, but ethical. In this case, it's neither illegal or unethical.

And it's still irrelevant that the previous owner was a Madoff victim.

[standin]

Though Blackie, it does matter that asset was bought with stolen goods.
It is called conversion.
The receiving of stolen properties is a crime.
It does not matter if you know or not.
It is called receiving stolen goods.


There are so many examples; I do not even know which one to give.

However, here it is in a nut shell.

Goods were stolen. Stolen goods were converted or laundered.
It does not matter if or if not the person knew they were taking part in a crime.
The crime was occurring.

Madeoff's scheme is like a nuclear bomb of the financial sector.

You cannot just rip up all of the earth that was affected by his toxic assets.
They have to be evaluated for toxicity. It is best in some cases to let the toxic just work its way through the earth.
In other areas, the toxic goods should be removed simply because it is easily removed.


Madeoff's crime was a crime against humanity . In addition, those types of crimes are challenging and complex when humanity is attempting to recover from them.

[Blackflag]

Ok. Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond to this, given the new information about your gender that has come to light.

See, Madoff (presumably) stole money from the homeowners. I don't know what we bought with that money. Maybe a nice car or a trip to Bali.

The house wasn't bought with stolen funds. In fact, the house was bought from the previous owner by Wells Fargo using its own cash. And it had nothing to do with Madoff or stolen funds.

So I think you're confused, and that's the nicest way I can put it. I think you're confusing Madoff's house with the victim's house.

[Blackflag]

Madeoff's crime was a crime against humanity .

I also think you're confusing financial fraud with genocide...

[bueno bob]

I also think you're confusing financial fraud with genocide...

In Madoff's case, it's a pretty fucking thin line.

PLEASE try and defend him now...

[GAR]

It's not whether it's right or wrong, it's whether you are going to get caught.

That's called "lawyerball".

[standin]

Do you think only genocide is a crime against humanity?

Do you think humanity is limited to one race?

Vast amounts of people will be affected by Madeoff's crime, many for generations.

The amount of people that lost their lives due to Madeoff’s crime against humanity is vast.

The bank's profited from Madeoff schemes and should be included in the claw backs


Charities may face Madoff liabilities

NEW YORK - Irving Picard, the liquidator for Bernard Madoff’s investment business, said charities that lost money in the fraud aren’t automatically off the hook when it comes to recovering their fake profit.
Charities may face Madoff liabilities - The Boston Globe



So a number of foundations and endowed nonprofits, to the extent that the information is available even now, lost most or all of their assets, or better put, lost most of the tax exempt funds entrusted by the American public to them, according to these early publicized estimates (this list doesn’t include nonprofits that will suffer because of the grants they will lost from these shrunken or closed foundations):

• The JEHT Foundation (closed)
• The Robert I. Lappin Charitable Foundation (closed)
• The Chais Family Foundation (closed)
• The Los Angeles Jewish Community Fund (out $25.5m)
• Fairfield Town Employees Board and Police and Fire Board (out $41.9m)
• The Carl and Ruth Shapiro Family Foundation (out $145m)
• The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology ($6m)
• The UJA Federation of New York (”significant hit”)
• The North Shore-Long Island Jewish Health System Foundation (out $5.7m)
• Yeshiva University (out $110m, 10% of its endowment; Madoff was a trustee there, and the money was invested with Madoff through a hedge fund controlled by another Yeshiva trustee)
• Tufts University ($20m)
• Gottesman Family Foundation
• Betty and Norman F. Levy Foundation
• Picower Foundation (closed, out $955m)
• The Fair Food Foundation
• New York Law School ($3m through Ascot partners, being sued for “wrongful conduct”)
• Elie Wiesel’s Foundation for Humanity ($15.2m)
• The Ramaz School (out $6m)
• Children of Chernobyl
• Charles and Candice Nadler Family Foundation
• Phileona Foundation
• Robert M. Beren Foundation
• the foundation of New York Daily News and US News and World Report owner Mort umer Zuckerman ($30m)
• Julian J. Levitt Foundation ($6m)
• family foundation of Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)
• Stephen Spielberg’s Wunderkinder Foundation
• family foundations of Fred Wilpon (New York Mets owner)
• Massachusetts state pension fund (out $12m)
• the charitable trusts of Avram and Carol Goldberg (money from the Stop & Shop supermarket chain)
• The Bernard L and Ruth Madoff Foundation (presumably its $19m is also gone)

Of course, they really don’t know exactly how much they lost, since they were relying on Madoff’s representations of the value of their investments. Already, some of the charities and foundations are revising their losses downward, realizing that their estimates of the value of their endowments were based on Bernie’s estimates of earnings, now exposed as Ponzi-illusory.

The Cohen Report: Lessons for Charities and Foundations from Bernie Madoff

Therefore, only charities and individuals should be subjected o the claw back.
The banks should not profit from Madeoff's crime, either. That home is profit from the Madeoff crimes. Crimes against humanity
.




Madoff Liquidator May ‘Claw Back’ Charities’ Profits (Update1)
Sept. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Irving Picard, the liquidator for Bernard Madoff’s investment business, said he might sue charities that took out more money than they invested with the imprisoned con man to force them to return the difference.

The law requires him to file so-called clawback suits against investors that profited from the fraud at Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, even if they weren’t aware of his $65 billion Ponzi scheme, Picard said yesterday. Charities aren’t exempt from such “avoidance actions,” he said.

Madoff Liquidator May ‘Claw Back’ Charities’ Profits (Update1) - Bloomberg.com


Madoff-Linked Funds Sue Insurers Over Liability Costs (Update3
Aug. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Tremont Group Holdings Inc. and other feeder funds to Bernard Madoff’s defunct investment advisory business sued insurers including a CNA Financial Corp. unit for failing to cover Madoff-related litigation.

Tremont, a fund of funds based in Rye, New York, that had about $3.3 billion invested with Madoff, an affiliate of OppenheimerFunds Inc., is a unit of MassMutual Financial Group. Investors have filed more than 18 lawsuits against MassMutual seeking to recoup Madoff-related losses.
Madoff-Linked Funds Sue Insurers Over Liability Costs (Update3) - Bloomberg.com


Madeoff did what no other terrorist organization (criminal extortion rings) has accomplished, global meltdown.


Brazil's Safra says Madoff costs may hit $40 mln
SAO PAULO, March 11 (Reuters) - Brazilian banking group Safra said on Wednesday it has made offers to an undisclosed number of clients who lost money in the alleged Ponzi scheme run by financier Bernard Madoff and that the majority agreed to settle.

The cost of the settlements with clients in the Zeus hedge fund may reach as much as $40 million, a Safra spokesman in New York said without disclosing the number of people affected.

"The Safra banks have made proposals to clients with respect to Zeus Fund," the spokesman said. "Safra has stated that its proposals are being well received by clients and the majority already have agreed.

Safra said last month it had no funds invested with Madoff and had no credit exposure to the disgraced financier. However, it did say it had purchased products sold by Madoff at the request of private banking clients.

Dozens of Brazilian investors with accounts at Safra, Spain's Santander SA (SAN.MC) and Brazil's Itau ITAU4.SAITU.N have lost money in the Madoff scheme, according to lawyers representing them. (Reporting by Elzio Barreto and Todd Benson; Editing by Andre Grenon)

Brazil's Safra says Madoff costs may hit $40 mln | Reuters

Madoff Costs Wells $294m

Loan defaults by Wells Fargo wealth management clients invested in Bernard Madoff's alleged $50 billion Ponzi scheme accounted for almost 12% of Wells Fargo's reported $2.55 billion fourth-quarter losses.

The San Francisco bank's wealth management arm is the first of its peers to link losses to Madoff. Those loan defaults account for $294 million. Other U.S. banks have been tight-lipped about their Madoff losses, but European giant Royal Bank of Scotland and Paribas each have $450 million exposure. Fortis, the Belgian bank, could lose up to $1.3 billion as a result of client investments with Madoff. And Santander, the largest bank in the Euro zone is reimbursing clients with Madoff's losses €500 million ($639.6 million) in preferred stock that includes an added 2% dividend.


Madoff Costs Wells $294m

That is a huge sector of recoverable funds.




That is the man whose total disregard of of humanity let men, woman, and children die by claiming he was not a poison well.
He in fact was a poison well and knew it.
You are spreading disinformation if you say that the cost of his operation did not cause hundreds of thousands if not millions of humanity to suffer and uncounted die directly related to his poison well.

[Blackflag]

In Madoff's case, it's a pretty fucking thin line.

PLEASE try and defend him now...

I'm not defending anybody. I'm just pointing out the obvious - that defrauding millionaires out of cash based on promises that were too good to be true is nowhere even remotely comparable to genocide. Anybody who disagrees has lost perspective and needs to spend less time on The Facebook and more time in the real world.

And I will again point out that this whole issue is irrelevant to what Wells Fargo does with its foreclosed houses.

[standin]

What just because one race was not affected, that harming the whole world is not a crime of humanity?

How you cannot see him for what he is is beyond me, Other than you are of his sort.
You are the one that needs to get off his ivory tower and get some nobility in your soul.

It is not any house, it is a house derived from Madeoff's criminal activities and nuclear fallout in the financial sector of humanity.

[Blackflag]

What just because one race was not affected, that harming the whole world is not a crime of humanity?

You are the one that needs to get off his ivory tower and get some nobility in your soul.

Nobility? What?

You think it makes you "noble" to put financial fraud in the same category as the "crimes against humanity," i.e. genocide, torture, apartheid, etc.?

You're confused: it's the "nobility" that lost their cash. And you're not "noble."

Does it make me cry when millionaires lose some cash trying to beat the system and getting fucked? Yeah, I'm fucking dying over here. I'm trying to cut my wrists right now. Especially for the people living in the $12 MILLION DOLLAR OCEANFRONT HOUSE who got screwed. Maybe I should send them a donation so they don't have to sell their Bentley.

BTW - Madoff and his victims still has fuck all to do with what Wells Fargo does with its foreclosed houses.

[standin]

You do not know what nobility is. You confuse nobility with monetary status.

You, also, do not care for the vast amount of losses that are of the downtrodden.

You think the means justifies the ends.

That everyone associated with the crime that has wealth was trying to beat the system, furthermore that simply because they have wealth they should be punished for having wealth.

No, nobility is not a monetary standing. Nobility is not a bloodline. Nobility is a way of life.
A way of life no matter if you are; burdened with wealth of possessions or burdened with dearth of possessions.

[standin]

What just because one race was not affected, that harming the whole world is not a crime of humanity?

How you cannot see him for what he is is beyond me, Other than you are of his sort.
You are the one that needs to get off his ivory tower and get some nobility in your soul.

It is not any house, it is a house derived from Madeoff's criminal activities and nuclear fallout in the financial sector of humanity.

Nobility? What?

You think it makes you "noble" to put financial fraud in the same category as the "crimes against humanity," i.e. genocide, torture, apartheid, etc.?

You're confused: it's the "nobility" that lost their cash. And you're not "noble."

Does it make me cry when millionaires lose some cash trying to beat the system and getting fucked? Yeah, I'm fucking dying over here. I'm trying to cut my wrists right now. Especially for the people living in the $12 MILLION DOLLAR OCEANFRONT HOUSE who got screwed. Maybe I should send them a donation so they don't have to sell their Bentley.

BTW - Madoff and his victims still has fuck all to do with what Wells Fargo does with its foreclosed houses.

:wave:

[GAR]

You do not know what nobility is.

Nobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Nobility is a state-privileged status which is generally hereditary, but which may also be personal only."