200 Million Million Jesus's

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  • Seshmeister
    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

    • Oct 2003
    • 35205

    200 Million Million Jesus's

    On a moonless night when 'the stars look very cold about the sky, and the only clouds to be seen are the glowing smudges of the milky way, go out to a place far from street light pollution, lie on the grass and gaze up at the sky.

    Because of light's finite speed, when you look at the great galaxy in andromeda you are seeing it as it was 2.3 million years ago and australopithecus stalked the high veldt. You are looking back in time.

    Shift your eyes a few degrees to the nearest bright star in the constellation of Andromeda and you see Mirach, but much more recently, as it was when Wall Street crashed. The sun, when you witness its colour and shape, is only eight minutes ago. But point a large telescope at the sombrero galaxy and you behold a trillion suns as they were when your tailed ancestors peered shyly through the canopy and india collided with asia to raise the himalayas. A collision on a larger scale, between two
    galaxies in stephan's quintet, is shown to us at a time when on earth dinosaurs were dawning and the trilobites fresh dead.

    Name any event in history and you will find a star out there whose light gives you a glimpse of something happening during the year of that event. Provided you are not a very young child, somewhere up in the night sky you can find your personal birth star. Its light is a thermonuclear glow
    that heralds the year of your birth. Indeed, you can find quite a few such stars (about 40 if you are 40; about 70 if you are 50; about 175 if you are 80 years old). When you look at one of your birth year stars, your telescope is a time machine letting you witness thermonuclear events that are actually taking place during the year you were born. A pleasing conceit, but that is all. Your birth star will not deign to tell anything about your personality, your future or your sexual compatibilities. The stars have larger agendas in which the preoccupations of human pettiness do not figure.

    Your birth star, of course, is yours for only this year. Next year you must look to the surface of a larger sphere one light year more distant. Think of this expanding sphere as a radius of good news, the news of your birth broadcast steadily outwards. In the einsteinian universe in which most
    physicists now think we live, nothing can in principle travel faster than light. So, if you are 50 years old, you have a personal news bubble of 50 light years' radius. Within that sphere (of a little more than a thousand stars) it is in principle possible (although obviously not in practice) for news of your existence to have permeated. Outside that sphere you might as well not exist; in an einsteinian sense you do not exist. Older people have larger existence spheres than younger people, but nobody's existence extends to more than a tiny fraction of the universe.

    The birth of jesus may seem an ancient and momentous event to us as we reach his second millenary. But the news is so recent on this scale that, even in the most ideal circumstances, it could in principle have been proclaimed to less than one 200 million millionth of the stars in the universe. Many, if not most, of the stars out there will be orbited by planets. The numbers are so vast that probably some of them have life forms, some have evolved intelligence and technology.

    Yet the distances and times that separate us are so great that thousands of life forms could independently evolve and go extinct without it being possible for any to know of the existence of any other.
    Richard Dawkins - Unweaving the Rainbow
    Last edited by Seshmeister; 12-20-2010, 09:49 PM.
  • Seshmeister
    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

    • Oct 2003
    • 35205

    #2
    It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

    In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

    This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.

    Comment

    • Blaze
      Full Member Status

      • Jan 2009
      • 4371

      #3
      This message will take the form of a simulated discussion between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.

      Chris: Joe can you explain to me why Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas?

      Joe: Sure, Chris. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas because we do not participate in pagan celebrations, and we know that Jesus was not born on December 25.

      Chris: Why do you call Christmas a pagan celebration? Certainly celebrating God's gift of his son would not qualify as a pagan celebration.

      Joe: December 25 is the date of the winter solstice and Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was strong at Rome.

      Chris: So what you are saying is that Christians celebrated a pagan celebration and just continued to do so by changing its name.

      Joe: That's right, Chris.

      Chris: Were you aware that this is not what the Watchtower originally taught was the origin of Christmas?

      Joe: What do you mean?

      Chris: In The Time is at Hand, Vol. 2 of the Studies in the Scriptures on page 61 it discusses the date of the birth of Christ. It says "...we could not be certain that the exact day might not be in September about the 27th, but October 1st, B.C. is about correct. Nine months back of that date would bring us to about Christmas time, 3 B.C., as the date at which our Lord laid aside the glory which he had with the Father before the world was made and the taking of or changing to human nature began. It seems probable that this was the origin of the celebration of December 25th as Christmas Day. Some writers on Church history claim, even, that Christmas Day was originally celebrated as the date of the annunciation by Gabriel to the virgin Mary." Joe, the Watchtower at one time agreed with Church history that the origin of Christmas was the celebration of the gift of God's son from his conception. Just because this conception happened around a pagan celebration does not make it pagan. If celebrating the gift of God's son is so wrong, how come God allowed the celebration for so long before the Watchtower ever declared it wrong?

      Joe: I know that the Watchtower used to celebrate Christmas but when they learned that it was tied into paganism, they stopped celebrating it.

      Chris: In the December 15, 1903 Watchtower, Charles Russell wrote concerning Christmas that even though he did not agree with the date which he said wasn't important, he said "..we may properly enough join with all whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Saviour." Both Charles Russell and Joseph Rutherford your first and second presidents celebrated Christmas and even encouraged others to participate in the celebration and to give Watchtower books as gifts. All this was at a time when the Watchtower says that Jesus was inspecting all churches to see which he would pick as the only "faithful and wise servant". How is it that celebrating the gift of God's son was alright back then but now is such a bad thing that a person can lose his everlasting life? How is it that God allowed Christians for almost two thousand years to honor the gift of his Son and then suddenly changed his mind?

      Joe: I'm not sure how to answer you. I know that I used to celebrate Christmas as a small child before my family became Witnesses and I never thought it was wrong then. But now I have learned things like the wise men were dupes of Satan, led by a Satanic star. The whole Christmas scene was led by
      Satan not God.

      Chris: I would be interested in talking with you about the star of Bethlehem and the wise men. Could we get together next week to discuss this?

      Joe: Sure.
      Go to part two: Is the Star of Bethlehem Satan's star?






      Why not celebrate Christmas or Jesus birth?
      In: Christmas,



      ANSWER

      Christmas is not actually the celebration of Jesus birth. It is actually a pagan celebration to the sun god. It was the early Catholic Church about 400 years after Jesus died that took the pagan celebration, changed the name to "Christ's Mass," and called it "Christian." We have a problem with that, because we believe as the Bible says at 2 Corinthians 6:14-16, that God will not have anything to do with what is associated with unclean worship. So, we do not engage in celebrations that come from pagan sources.

      We do not celebrate Jesus birthday, or birthdays in general because of the pagan sources that birthday celebrations also come from. Jesus and the disciples and even the first Christians did not celebrate birthdays. They regarded them as pagan. Birthday celebrations actually originated in pagan religion. They were celebrated as a way to appease the god of the astrological sign that a person was born under. Even the "birthday wish" was made to that pagan god or godess. Since these gods of the constalations are rival gods to the true GOD, ancient Jews and early Christians did not engage in birthday celebrations for fear that t would violate GOD's law on exclusive worship and devotion to HIM.(Exodus 20:3) Likewise today, JW's follow this same line of reasoning. We do not want to compromise our devotion and worship to the only one a true GOD, Jehovah.

      For further reading click on RELATE LINKS (below)

      The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:

      "The date of Christ's birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month. According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the "dies natalis Solis Invicti" (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274 A.D., Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. {(1967), Vol. III, p. 656}. So, the date Dec. 25 was chosen to coincide with Sun worship.

      As an illustration: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman's home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He doesn't favor the celebration of birthdays. He doesn't like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man's enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? How would you feel? Would you want to be a party to it? Jehovah's Witnesses follow the Bible completely, taking into consideration how God feels about false worship and how Jesus taught us to live our lives. This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations.

      Addition: The reason christianity adopted christmas was because their efforts to convert the pagans were failing. So they adopted their winter celebration, put Christ in the center and there you go- Christmas


      Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Jeh...#ixzz18hyf7gZi



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      Annie Christian wanted
      To be number one
      But her kingdom never comes
      Thy will be done

      She couldn't stand the glory
      She will be second to none
      The way Annie tells the story
      She's his only son

      Annie Christian wanted
      To be a big star
      So she moved to Atlanta
      And she bought a blue car

      She killed black children
      And what's fair is fair
      If you try and say you're crazy
      Everybody say electric chair
      Electric chair

      Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      Until you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs
      Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      'Til you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs

      Annie Christian was a whore
      Always looking for some fun
      Being good was such a bore
      So she bought a gun

      She killed John Lennon
      Shot him down cold
      She tried to kill Reagan
      Everybody say gun control
      Gun control

      Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      Until you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs
      Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      'Til you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs

      Liar, liar, liar
      Gotcha in a jam
      Put your head on the block
      Somebody say ABSCAM, ABSCAM

      Annie, Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      Until you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs
      Annie Christian, Anti-Christ
      'Til you're crucified
      I'll live my life in taxicabs
      "I have heard there are troubles of more than one kind. - Some come from ahead and some come from behind. - But I've bought a big bat. I'm all ready you see. - Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!" ~ Dr. Seuss
      sigpic

      Comment

      • Seshmeister
        ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

        • Oct 2003
        • 35205

        #4
        Winning a theological argument with a Jehovah's witness is a bit like beating a 4 year old at chess. After cutting the kids hands off.

        Comment

        • Blaze
          Full Member Status

          • Jan 2009
          • 4371

          #5
          I just report it, Sesh....
          The fact that Dec 25 is not Jesus birthday is old news.

          So, how is the family, Sesh? Has the winter treated you to any memories?
          "I have heard there are troubles of more than one kind. - Some come from ahead and some come from behind. - But I've bought a big bat. I'm all ready you see. - Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!" ~ Dr. Seuss
          sigpic

          Comment

          • VanHalener
            ROCKSTAR

            • Nov 2006
            • 5451

            #6
            I am worried about that hostile race out there that discovered classic Van Halen four years ago and has been cranking it while conquering planets ever since. They are going to be PISSED when they hear of the breakup and are going to come here looking for answers.
            I can hear the intergalactic space reporter now,
            "Eddie Van Halen gets earth destroyed...More Milky Way news after this..."
            ~Only you can prevent low volume~

            Comment

            • Jesus Christ
              Veteran
              • Jan 2004
              • 2428

              #7
              Originally posted by Seshmeister
              It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

              In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

              This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.
              My son, why do ye trouble yourself making up all these reasons to doubt My story? Have ye read "The Martian Chronicles" by Ray Bradbury? There's an interesting account in there of how I might have revealed Myself to a form of life different to you mortals of Earth.

              Comment

              • ELVIS
                Banned
                • Dec 2003
                • 44120

                #8
                All the people in the universe live here on earth...

                Comment

                • Jesus Christ
                  Veteran
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 2428

                  #9
                  Why do ye thinketh that, Gregory?

                  For verily I say unto you, that if ye believeth that Dad & I created the Universe and all that is in it, then why would We make 99.999999999999% of it without life?

                  Trust Me, We aren't that bored that We would just create a bunch of lifeless galaxies for no reason.

                  Comment

                  • Seshmeister
                    ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                    • Oct 2003
                    • 35205

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ELVIS
                    All the people in the universe live here on earth...
                    I think that is the only explanation that fits with the Christian mythology.

                    But if that is the case why would your god create 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 other suns with no one there?

                    It makes it pretty fucking hard to feel special doesn't it?

                    Comment

                    • Seshmeister
                      ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                      • Oct 2003
                      • 35205

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Seshmeister
                      It goes without saying that this is difficult and not as reassuring as the Jesus story.

                      In itself it doesn't in any way disprove anything in the Jesus story but it is interesting to think about the fact that if the good news of Jesus had to spread through the visible universe we would need and equal spread of 200 000 000 Jesus's born 2000 years ago and for the news to travel at the speed of light.

                      This is the 21st version of the way the church hated when Galileo showed the Earth goes around the Sun because it's very very difficult to work out the whole 'God giving his only son' thing when facts about the size of the universe get in the way.
                      Sorry I had been out for a few beers when I posted this and it may be the most wrong thing I've ever said.

                      I posted we would need 200 000 000 Jesus's when of course I should have said 200 000 000 000 000 Jesus's

                      Comment

                      • ELVIS
                        Banned
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 44120

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jesus Christ
                        Why do ye thinketh that, Gregory?
                        Because God wanted it that way...

                        God put his greatest creation here...on EARTH!

                        Comment

                        • FORD
                          ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                          • Jan 2004
                          • 58803

                          #13
                          So all the other billions of planets out there are just sitting there for no reason at all?

                          Sorry, I can't believe that. It's also actually insulting to God if you believe this fucked up planet is the best He could do.
                          Eat Us And Smile

                          Cenk For America 2024!!

                          Justice Democrats


                          "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                          Comment

                          • PETE'S BROTHER
                            DIAMOND STATUS
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 12678

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ELVIS
                            Because God wanted it that way...

                            God put his greatest creation here...on EARTH!
                            aw shucks, thanx...
                            Another one of those classic genius posts, sure to generate responses. You log on the next day to see what your witty gem has produced to find no one gets it and 2 knotheads want to stick their dicks in it... Well played, sir!!

                            Comment

                            • ELVIS
                              Banned
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 44120

                              #15
                              Originally posted by FORD
                              So all the other billions of planets out there are just sitting there for no reason at all?

                              Sorry, I can't believe that. It's also actually insulting to God if you believe this fucked up planet is the best He could do.
                              We seriously need a JACKASS button...

                              Comment

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