Proof that the rich are not "job creators"

[binnie]

People on lower incomes spend a higher proportion of their salary i.e. all of it that's why sales/VAT taxes are inherently unfair and non progressive.

Reducing tax on rich people has never been shown to create wealth for a country. The so called 'trickle down' effect is a trickle which is another word for fuck all.

In the UK the conservative government is trying to solve the deficit by spending cuts but also 25% is by tax increases. For the US at this time to have the lowest taxes in 40 years on the rich is nuts.

The counter-argument is that rich people invest their money (either in a business or just by putting in the bank) which creates investment in the economy. I'm not sure I buy it, however.

For me, the issue is moral rather than economical. If you earn over £42,000 you pay 40% tax; over £150,000 it's 50%. That money is not handed to you - you've earnt it either through hard work, or through a long, long line of qualifications. Why should you be penalized for being successful? I think the rates as they stand are about right; any higher and it starts to get silly, in my mind.

They should put higher taxes on utility companies and banks, certainly. I'd also cap public sector salaries at £42,000 (or whatever the higher rate of tax is at a given time). That's a good pension - it would be interesting to see how much savings would be if that was brought into play.

I also think that we should tax the fat. Smokers and drinkers get hit hard. Let's hit on the fatties.

[Seshmeister]

For me, the issue is moral rather than economical. If you earn over £42,000 you pay 40% tax; over £150,000 it's 50%. That money is not handed to you - you've earnt it either through hard work, or through a long, long line of qualifications. Why should you be penalized for being successful? I think the rates as they stand are about right; any higher and it starts to get silly, in my mind.

But that's not actually true.

Most people who earn high salaries do so because they were lucky enough to be born into an environment that allowed them to.

Go look up social mobility in the UK or the US it's as low as it's been since the middle ages.

Who pays for all this education you talk about? The fat smoking bus driver who drove you to your lectures each morning.

[Seshmeister]

Correction, afternoon.

[Seshmeister]

In the UK it's not just the very rich who 'avoid' tax. I met a plumber a couple of weeks ago who paid £600 of tax last year. He was driving a BMW.

Maybe we should have a world treaty on small business rates so that if those guys want to avoid tax they have to move to Somalia, too (I am joking, Sesh.)

I bet the plumber earns more than you, plumbers are fucking loaded.

[SilvioDante]

And if the corporations and the rich paid THEIR fair share of taxes, then they wouldn't need to keep making up new ways to tax the rest of us, right?

This is an argument I never understood....

Let's say I own a big bad oil company. Our government passes a bunch of regulations that closes every loophole and now my company has to pay our "fair share" of taxes. Let's say my tax rates jump 20%. I am suppose to go into our corporate meeting and say "well guys, the jig is up. We have ran from paying our "fair share" of taxes long enough. It's time to pony up and be the good citizens we are and pay our "fair share" and we all have to take a pay cut." ???

Uhhh, no....

I think the meeting would go something like this: "Our tax rate just jumped 20%, raise the price of our product 20% to offset the cost. We'll just pass it on. Someone else can pay for it! Any questions, no? Meeting adjourned"

Just a thought...

[Seshmeister]

I think what happens is that because they are so rich the corporations can afford very smart people who just run rings around the government employees whose job is to get the tax.

Meanwhile the government employs people like Michelle Bachmann from the University of fairies and goblins to hold them to account.

[binnie]

But that's not actually true.

Most people who earn high salaries do so because they were lucky enough to be born into an environment that allowed them to.

Go look up social mobility in the UK or the US it's as low as it's been since the middle ages.

Who pays for all this education you talk about? The fat smoking bus driver who drove you to your lectures each morning.

It's certainly true that social mobility is depressingly low. I can claim to be one the few who 'moved up', however. My Dad is a mechanic. When I told him I was applying to university, he turned to me and said 'that's not the sort of thing we do' (bearing in mind I had straight As at GCSE and A Level). It's a different world to me, and a long way from my council estate. How did I get there? Through hard work and knowing what I wanted to do from being about 13 years old. It's certainly not easy to be socially mobile (and there are two many barriers in the way), but if you want it you can take it.

And yes, most of the kid who grow up to earn the big bucks had parents who also earnt the big bucks. And, like their parents, they will pay considerably more tax than the bus driver. They will also work in jobs where they are routninely bullied into 'voluntary' over-time and be stressed for most of their working lives (who would want to be a lawyer?) In my experience of teaching a load of public-school toffs, however, what surprises me most is how hard they work even in their first year as undegrads; and how hard they've always worked. The reason for that is not because they were wealthy, but because they come from a culture - at home and at school - where anything less than an A is a fail.

Privileged? Certainly. But they work hard too.

Maybe if the bus driver had had a plan at 14, 15 or 16, he wouldn't be a bus driver (maybe he's actually happy being a bus driver.) I went to a shit school and flourished, so it is possible. I'd certainly like the world to be fairer, but we all also have to realize that whilst fortune controls half of our fate, we can impact on the other half.

[binnie]

I bet the plumber earns more than you, plumbers are fucking loaded.

I'll bet he does too. I earn £30K.

My point is that not all 'tax avoiders' are mutli-millionaires. If you are self-employed and have a half decent accountant, you can pay very little tax compared to someone who (on paper at least) earns the same but works for a company. Would you argue that we should close all of those loop-holes too? (The Torries wouldn't do it, mind.)

[Seshmeister]

You want to tax the people that actually create wealth more to pay for your big fat public sector pension, holidays and paternity leave whilst you play yourself teaching unnecessary stuff to rich kids they could find on the internet themselves? :D

[binnie]

You want to tax the people that actually create wealth more to pay for your big fat public sector pension, holidays and paternity leave whilst you play yourself teaching unnecessary stuff to rich kids they could find on the internet themselves? :D

Yes please. :D

(Except the paternity leave part. Given that I don't really want to have children thrust upon me, when I reluctantly agree to Mrs binnie's demands to spawn them I don't want to be left looking after them too much. )

We still send them to libraries - most of the best academic scholarship rarely makes it onto the web (outside of subscription-only journals). Universites are HUGE welath creators, too.

[Seshmeister]

I actually had a meeting cancelled earlier in the year because the woman was on paternity leave after her partner had a baby.

It's PC gone mad I tells ya.

[Hardrock69]

Look the answer is simple. If the government were truly interested in bailing out America, they would print up enough cash that they could give every tax payer $100,000. Our dollars are based on nothing anyway, so what is a few trillion more dollars?

Instantly, everyone would get out of debt. People would start shopping like crazy. Jobs would be created. Unemployment would drop drastically. And life would go on.

[Seshmeister]

Inflation would go to 1000%

[BigBadBrian]

Look the answer is simple. If the government were truly interested in bailing out America, they would print up enough cash that they could give every tax payer $100,000. Our dollars are based on nothing anyway, so what is a few trillion more dollars?

Instantly, everyone would get out of debt. People would start shopping like crazy. Jobs would be created. Unemployment would drop drastically. And life would go on.

You know, I've often thought that if the Obama Clan wanted a stimulus so bad, one paid to the people instead of letting the govt spend it would be far more effective. Alot of people would use it to pay off bills and get out of debt...then alot of people would blow it. Use vouchers (no cash) and have a legal list of what it could be used for (House purchases and bill pay-offs mainly) and tie it to their income tax returns (no, it would not be taxed) so the govt could keep track that people are spending it legally. I have more faith in the public than I do of the government when it comes to spending.

[BigBadBrian]

No it's not. I'm glad you finally came around to thefact we're spending too much on silly shit: the "defense" industry.

Yeah, we all know those military folks are overpaid, you fuckin' retard.