Syrian Chemical Weapons Kill Or Maim a 1000

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  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49565

    Syrian Chemical Weapons Kill Or Maim a 1000

    Syria crisis: Could chemical weapons claims prompt Libya-style intervention?

    The US has joined other countries in demanding that a UN team investigate Wednesday's suspected chemical weapons attack in Syria. But experts are quick to list reasons why a major US intervention is unlikely.


    By Howard LaFranchi, Staff writer / August 22, 2013

    Washington

    The calls for forceful action from France and other Western powers in the wake of suspected large-scale chemical weapons use in Syria are prompting comparisons to the Western intervention in Libya two years ago.

    In that case, the United States opted for “leading from behind” as European-led NATO forces toppled Muammar Qaddafi.

    But tough rhetoric aside, a repeat of an intervention with America in a supporting role is very unlikely, say regional and transatlantic diplomatic analysts.

    No Western intervention will occur unless proof emerges that the forces of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad unleashed some of the regime’s fearsome chemical weapons on the Damascus suburbs this week, they agree. But even if proof eventually emerges – at this point a big “if” – the complexities of the Syrian conflict and the likelihood that any intervention would not see quick results would almost certainly require the US to take the lead.

    And despite President Obama’s “red line” of a year ago concerning chemical weapons use in Syria, no one should expect a large-scale US intervention in Syria under any circumstances, the analysts add.

    “Were there to be some kind of direct Western intervention in Syria, the US would be out front, not behind,” says Charles Kupchan, an expert in transatlantic relations at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington. Europe’s two major defense powers, Britain and France, don’t have the “assets” to lead such an intervention, Syria is farther away from them than is Libya, and the international and regional complexities mean the US would have to take the lead.

    “The likelihood of a repeat of Libya is low,” Mr. Kupchan says.

    But that reality has not stopped France and others from assuming a more aggressive and out-front position toward the Syrian conflict.

    That forcefulness was on display again Thursday, as French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius demanded a “reaction of force” if the use of chemical weapons is proved.

    Turkey also called for immediate action, saying “all red lines have been crossed” by Mr. Assad in his fight with rebels seeking his ouster. And Britain warned that “we cannot rule out any option,” even though it said a “political solution” to Syria’s civil war remains preferable.

    All this has a familiar ring, Kupchan says.

    “This is not the first time that US allies have been more forward-leaning on some kind of intervention in Syria than the US,” says Kupchan, who is also a professor of international affairs at Georgetown University in Washington. “The British and the French have been steadily out front in wanting to provide arms to the opposition and on other more-forceful measures. But at the end of the day,” he adds, “the allies are rhetorically more out front of the US than in reality.”

    The Obama administration was quick to join France, Britain, and 34 other nations in demanding that a United Nations chemical-weapons team already in Syria be allowed to investigate Wednesday’s suspected large-scale use of chemical weapons – possibly the nerve gas sarin, which Syria stockpiles – against rebel strongholds in the Damascus outskirts.

    The White House demanded Thursday that Syria grant the UN team “immediate and unfettered access” to the attack site. But the administration has shied away from the interventionist language emanating from other Western capitals.

    At the State Department Thursday, spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Mr. Obama has directed US intelligence agencies to work on determining if chemical weapons were used. The president has a range of options for action if an assessment finds the use of chemical weapons, she added.

    Russia and China, both supporters of Assad, thwarted UN Security Council passage of a statement that called on the UN to “urgently investigate” the latest attack. Rebel sources claim up to 1,300 Syrians, including many women and children, were killed.

    Instead, the approved, watered-down statement expresses a desire to clarify what happened in the attack, which it deems a “serious escalation” of the Syrian conflict. On Thursday, the UN sent the Syrian government a formal request that its team in Syria be allowed to investigate the attack site.

    Arriving at the facts about just what happened Wednesday won’t be easy, weapons experts say. Photo and video evidence suggests some kind of chemical contact. But some point to videos showing people administering some kind of antidote via syringe to victims – adding that improper injection of some nerve-gas antidotes could have been deadlier than what might have been misconstrued as a chemical attack.

    Another complicating factor: Syrian forces continued Thursday to bombard the areas affected by Wednesday’s attack, effectively putting the area off limits to any inspection and almost certainly destroying evidence that might be gathered.

    Yet even if some proof of a chemical attack by Assad’s forces is forthcoming, the Western response is not likely to be on the scale of the Libya intervention, Kupchan says.

    “Even if in the short term the Libya intervention was seen to have gone relatively well – Qaddafi was toppled – over the long term it’s seen as having had some questionable effects,” he says.

    At the top of that list for Americans is Benghazi, the eastern Libyan city and cradle of the Libyan opposition where a year after Qaddafi’s death, a terrorist attack on the US mission left US Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other Americans dead.

    But the list of “questionable” long-term effects of the intervention also includes the post-conflict flow of Qaddafi’s unsecured arms into Mali – where the French eventually intervened against pro-Al Qaeda militants – and mounting evidence of Libya turning into a “failed state,” Kupchan says.

    Obama will come under intense pressure to intervene in Syria in some form if his “red line” was definitely crossed by a large-scale chemical attack, analysts say. But a leader who is already cautious about military intervention will probably be even more so after Libya, they add.

    Syria’s volatile mix of moderate nationalists, jihadists, and foreign fighters in the opposition to Assad is just one reason that “getting more deeply involved in Syria is more complicated and dangerous than it was in Libya,” Kupchan says.

    Other factors: Syria’s complex sectarian divide and the inability of Syria’s opposition to develop into a coherent fighting force on the ground.

    Even with proof of a large-scale chemical weapons attack, US airstrikes on Syrian government buildings and military installations are the extent of what Kuphcan would expect to see.

    Even then, he adds, he’d anticipate “standoff attacks,” perhaps by cruise missiles launched from ships, which would send a message to Assad without putting US forces in harm’s way.

    CS Monitor
  • Nickdfresh
    SUPER MODERATOR

    • Oct 2004
    • 49565

    #2


    Video footage or possible sarin nerve gas attack...

    Comment

    • FORD
      ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

      • Jan 2004
      • 59579

      #3
      Why can't they just take ASSad out with a drone strike and be done with it?

      Because anything else is just going to give Benji Nuttyyahoo exactly what he wants..... World War III and a clear path to invade Iran.
      Eat Us And Smile

      Cenk For America 2024!!

      Justice Democrats


      "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

      Comment

      • Nickdfresh
        SUPER MODERATOR

        • Oct 2004
        • 49565

        #4
        August 23, 2013 7:36 PM

        U.S. preps for possible cruise missile attack on Syrian gov't forces


        By David Martin, Holly Williams
        <embed src="http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/cbsnews_player_embed.swf" scale="noscale" salign="lt" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" background="#333333" width="425" height="279" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" FlashVars="si=254&&contentValue=50153607&shareUrl= http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57599944/u.s-preps-for-possible-cruise-missile-attack-on-syrian-govt-forces/" />
        (CBS News) WASHINGTON - CBS News has learned that the Pentagon is making the initial preparations for a cruise missile attack on Syrian government forces. We say "initial preparations" because such an attack won't happen until the president gives the green light. And it was clear during an interview on CNN Friday that he is not there yet.

        "If the U.S. goes in and attacks another country, without a U.N. mandate and without clear evidence that can be presented," the president told CNN, "then there are questions in terms of whether international law supports it -- 'do we have the coalition to make it work?' Those are considerations that we have to take into account."

        An attack on suburbs in Damascus suburbs has left hundreds dead. Poison gas used is suspected.

        The attack on the Damascus suburbs, which left hundreds dead this week, is looking more and more like a poison gas was used. The United States warned Syria months ago that using chemical weapons could provoke a U.S. response.

        U.S. detected activity at Syria chemical weapons sites before attack
        Hundreds dead in Syria after alleged chemical weapons attack
        Syria opposition group claims 1,300 killed in chemical attack in Damascus suburbs

        President Obama's national security adviser, Susan Rice, sent out a Tweet on Friday, calling what happened "an apparent CW (chemical weapons) attack." And the commander of U.S. forces in the Mediterranean has ordered Navy warships to move closer to Syria to be ready for a possible cruise missile strike.

        U.S. warships are moving closer to Syria for a possible cruise missile attack; but such an action has yet to be approved by President Obama

        Launching cruise missiles from the sea would not risk any American lives. It would be a punitive strike designed not to topple Syrian dictator Bashir Assad but to convince him he cannot get away with using chemical weapons.

        Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin Dempsey is expected to present options for a strike at a White House meeting on Saturday.

        Potential targets include command bunkers and launchers used to fire chemical weapons.

        However, officials stress President Obama, who until now has steadfastly resisted calls for military intervention, has not made a decision.

        U.S. intelligence detected activity at known Syrian chemical weapons sites in the days before the attack. At the time that did not appear out of the ordinary. But now it is part of the circumstantial evidence pointing toward an attack.

        The clearest evidence would come from a team of U.N. experts already in Damascus to investigate earlier, smaller scale incidents involving suspected chemical weapons. So far they have not been allowed into the field. But with pictures providing graphic evidence of mass casualties, even Russia -- long one of the Assad regime's staunchest backers -- is calling for a U.N. investigation.

        Whatever an investigation finds, the president will also have to consider what he would do next if he ordered a strike and Syria continued to use chemical weapons.

        Meanwhile in Syria, two days after the alleged poison gas attack, more disturbing video has emerged of the aftermath. From it comes horrific scenes that show the dead and the dying -- many of them children.

        One young boy described struggling to breathe and then losing consciousness. When he woke up in the hospital, he said, he could no longer see.

        It's impossible to verify how many people died. But in a crowded, makeshift morgue, so many of the bodies were unidentified -- they were numbered.

        Dr. Ghazwan Bwidany is caring for survivors of the attack at a clinic in Damascus. On Friday, CBS News spoke with him over the Internet. He said his mobile medical unit treated 900 people -- 70 of whom died.

        "When you see these children," said Bwidany, "dying in front of our eyes, this is a very terrible feeling. I can't describe it."

        Watch this video below of a Syrian mother saying goodbye to her children who were killed after reported gas attack:

        Dr. Bwidany said some of the survivors have neurological problems, such as memory loss and confusion, that he believes could only be caused by a nerve agent.

        So if this wasn't a chemical attack, what could it have been? "I don't know anything else that could make these symptoms, with this large number of injured," he said.

        CBS News talked with a spokesman for the Syrian opposition Friday, who said he was angry and frustrated with the international community. He believes that if U.S. had delivered the arms it promised the opposition two months ago, the deadly attack may not have happened.

        © 2013 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.

        Comment

        • ELVIS
          Banned
          • Dec 2003
          • 44120

          #5
          Originally posted by FORD
          Why can't they just take ASSad out with a drone strike and be done with it?
          Why can't you stop believing the propaganda ??

          Comment

          • Nickdfresh
            SUPER MODERATOR

            • Oct 2004
            • 49565

            #6
            Well? What did Alex Jones tell you what to think?

            Comment

            • FORD
              ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

              • Jan 2004
              • 59579

              #7
              Originally posted by ELVIS
              Why can't you stop believing the propaganda ??
              No, that's just it.

              I DON'T believe the propaganda.

              ASSad is an ASShole, and he deserves to go, but he's only a threat to Syria itself. Not to Israel, not to the United States, or anybody else.

              And I definitely do NOT believe that Harvey the Invisible Jihadist Rabbit and the Tooth Fairy Invisible Terraist Brigades (a.k.a. multi-national fictional terrorist organization) have any goddamned thing to do with ASSad's opposition.

              On the other hand, it's quite possible that some of them could be Mossad dupes.
              Eat Us And Smile

              Cenk For America 2024!!

              Justice Democrats


              "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

              Comment

              • Nickdfresh
                SUPER MODERATOR

                • Oct 2004
                • 49565

                #8
                We may well be firing missiles soon, for better or worse...

                Comment

                • vandeleur
                  ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 9865

                  #9
                  @frankieboyle: A good way to deal with a complex political problem is to bomb it and see what happens

                  Funny and scary
                  fuck your fucking framing

                  Comment

                  • FORD
                    ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                    • Jan 2004
                    • 59579

                    #10
                    I see Judas IsKerryot gave his little "yep, we're going to do exactly what NuttyYahoo tells us to do. AGAIN" speech today.

                    How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake, Judas?

                    Remember that phrase? Or after 12 years of endorsing these blatant and deliberate Likud/PNAC "mistakes", do you no longer remember saying it?
                    Eat Us And Smile

                    Cenk For America 2024!!

                    Justice Democrats


                    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                    Comment

                    • Nickdfresh
                      SUPER MODERATOR

                      • Oct 2004
                      • 49565

                      #11
                      I think the map that is emerging is the next week is going to be spent putting together some sort of coalition, probably with NATO. The UN will be avoided because the Chinese and Russians will veto any sort of action through the UN. Right now, nothing significant has been deployed, so nothing is imminent...

                      Comment

                      • vandeleur
                        ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 9865

                        #12
                        Interesting take on it



                        So it looks like we’re going to bomb Assad.

                        Good.

                        Really? Why good?

                        Did you see the videos of those kids? I heard that ten thousand people were gassed. Hundreds of them died. This time, we have to do something.

                        Yes, I saw the videos.

                        And you don’t want to pound the shit out of him?

                        I want to pound the shit out of him.

                        But you think we shouldn’t do anything.

                        I didn’t say that. But I want you to explain what we’re going to achieve by bombing.

                        We’re going to let Assad know that chemical weapons are over the line. There’s a reason they’ve been illegal since Verdun or whenever.

                        Except when Saddam used them against the Kurds—we knew, and we didn’t say a word.

                        Is that a reason to let Assad use them against his people?

                        At this point, I don’t think Assad is too worried about the Geneva Conventions.

                        He should have to think hard before using them again.

                        He’s a bloody dictator fighting for survival. He’s going to do whatever he has to do.

                        Not if we really hurt him. Not if we pound his communications centers, his air-force bases, key government installations. He’ll be more likely to survive if he doesn’t use chemical weapons.

                        Killing civilians while we’re at it.

                        These would be very specific targets.

                        The wrong people always get killed.

                        Maybe. Probably. But if you were a Syrian being bombed by Assad every day, trying to keep your head down and your family alive, wouldn’t you want the world to respond, even if a few more people die? I think so.

                        Easy for you to say.

                        Hey, can we not personalize this?

                        Weren’t you just saying that I don’t care about dying children? (Pause.) So you want us to get involved in their civil war.

                        I’m not saying that.

                        But that’s what we’ll be doing. Intervening on the rebel side, tipping the balance in their favor.

                        Not necessarily. We’ll be drawing a line that says dictators don’t get to use W.M.D.s without consequences.

                        You can’t bomb targets on one side of a civil war without helping the other side.

                        It would be very temporary. We’d send Assad a clear message, and then we’d step back and let them go on fighting. We’re not getting involved any deeper than that, because I know what you’re going to say—

                        The rebels are a bunch of infighting, disorganized, jihadist thugs, and we can’t trust any of them.

                        I’m not saying we should.

                        And what do we do if Assad retaliates against Israel or Turkey? Or if he uses nerve gas somewhere else?

                        We hit him again.

                        And it escalates.

                        Not if we restrict it to cruise missiles and air strikes.

                        Now you’re scaring me. Have you forgotten Iraq?

                        Not for a single minute.

                        My point is that you can’t restrict it. You can’t use force for limited goals. You need to know what you’ll do after his next move, and the move after that.

                        It only escalates if we allow ourselves to get dragged in deeper. Kosovo didn’t escalate.

                        This isn’t Kosovo. The Syrian rebels aren’t the K.L.A. Assad isn’t Milosevic. Putin isn’t Yeltsin. This is far worse. Kosovo became a U.N. protectorate. That’s not going to happen in Syria.

                        You think Putin is going to risk a military confrontation with the U.S. and Europe?

                        I think Russia isn’t going to let Assad go down. Neither is Iran or Hezbollah. So they’ll escalate. This could be the thing that triggers an Israel-Iran war, and how do we stay out of that? My God, it feels like August, 1914.

                        That was a hundred years ago. Stop with the historical analogies.

                        You’re the one who brought up Verdun. And Kosovo.

                        I brought up Kosovo because you brought up Iraq. That’s the problem with these arguments. Iraq! Vietnam! Valley Forge! Agincourt! People resort to analogies so they don’t have to think about the matter at hand.

                        And because they don’t know anything about the matter at hand.

                        I know what I saw in those videos.

                        Thank God Obama doesn’t make foreign policy that way. He knows what he doesn’t know about Syria. He’s always thinking a few steps ahead. He’s not going to get steamrolled by John McCain and Anderson Cooper.

                        At a certain point, caution is another word for indecisiveness. Obama looks weak! Or worse—indifferent. Anyway, he should have thought ahead when he called chemical weapons a “red line.” He set that trap a year ago, and now we’re in it.

                        Why does it have to be a trap?

                        Because our credibility is on the line.

                        Thank you, Dr. Kissinger.

                        See, that’s another thing people do in these arguments.

                        What?

                        “You sound like so-and-so.” It shouldn’t matter who else is on your side. I mean, you’re in bed with Rand Paul. Anyway, credibility matters even if Kissinger said so. You have to do what you say you’re going to do, especially with bullies.

                        I don’t think Obama committed himself to any one course of action. But if he does bomb them, we’re involved in that war, and I sure hope his advisers have thought through all the potential consequences better than you have.

                        Inaction has consequences, too. Assad gases more people, the death toll hits two hundred thousand, the weapons get into Hezbollah’s hands, Iran moves ahead with its nuclear program, the Syrian rebels disintegrate and turn to international terrorism, the whole region goes up in sectarian flames.

                        And how does firing cruise missiles at Damascus prevent any of this?

                        It doesn’t. But, look, all of this is already happening with us sitting it out. If we put a gun to Assad’s head, we might be able to have more influence over the outcome. At least we can prevent him from winning.

                        A violent stalemate. How wonderful for the Syrians. Some people think that’s the best solution for us.

                        I’m not saying that.

                        What are you saying?

                        I don’t know. I had it worked out in my head until we started talking. (Pause.) But we need to do something this time.

                        Not just to do something.

                        All right. Not just to do something. But could you do me a favor?
                        What’s that?

                        While you’re doing nothing, could you please be unhappy about it ?

                        I am.
                        fuck your fucking framing

                        Comment

                        • vandeleur
                          ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 9865

                          #13
                          I don't usually get involved in front line fights , but saying as all the more vocal front line regs seem quiet at the mo I'll thro my 2 cents in.

                          I say when in doubt do the exact polar opposite of what Tony Blair suggests .
                          fuck your fucking framing

                          Comment

                          • WACF
                            Crazy Ass Mofo
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 2920

                            #14
                            It is time to sit this out.

                            My first reaction was hell ya...fire away.

                            But what happens....we end up helping the same people we fought in Afghanistan.

                            In Syria the "Opposition" executes men for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

                            It is a fucking mess...the UN is past it's expiry date and pretty much lost any creditability it once held.

                            Sit it out.

                            Comment

                            • sadaist
                              TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 11625

                              #15
                              I am having serious flashbacks. When John Kerry was speaking about Syria I coulda swore it was Colin Powell speaking of Iraq. I honestly think the opposition themselves used the chemical weapons on their own people. Assad had absolutely zero to gain and everything to lose if he did this. It just doesn't make any sense. He is evil but he is not stupid. And to these people, having your own die for the cause is martyrdom.

                              This is all just a ploy to help the opposition (Al Qaeda) without actually providing them with the weapons so they can turn around and kill us in a year. Help Al Qaeda overthrow Assad by providing them with weapons? Or help them by weakening Assads military with cruise missiles from afar? Yeah, cruise missiles. We just needed the excuse to go in. I know, hey, why don't you guys use the chemical weapons on your own so we can blame Assad and have our excuse to go in and help you without saying we're helping you.

                              It's all a bunch of crooked shit that is not what we as the general public are being told or shown. Every move here has been pre planned for a long time to drum up public outrage so we support the governments decision.

                              We need to get the fuck out of the middle east, all of it. They hate us. They do nothing for us. These are not our fights. We want to promote freedom? Let these people be free to determine their own fates. Their own futures. Just like we did 225 years ago. They will be happier with us out. We will be happier with us out. And don't worry, they will still sell us their oil no matter what. They need to survive by selling their one good to the world. And if they don't, we have plenty of other options.
                              “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

                              Comment

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