Should the USA pull out of Iraq?

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
If the U.S. had imperial ambitions, you'd be living in a colony.

We're not far off it with Blair in charge!

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
As far as pulling out of Iraq, crazy. You don't even have to go far back in history to realize that you can't simply pull out of a country you've defeated in a post-haste fashion. Most agree that WW2 could've been prevented had the U.S. and Europe rebuilt Germany on the first go around.

Oh I agree, once you're in there you've got to stay for a significant period.

As for Germany, it didn't need rebuilding the first time around. Germany was OK after WW I, a little bruised but hardly on its knees. The problem was the treaty of Versaille deprived the Germans of any sense of nation state so the likes of you know who could take power. Add that to the fact that many leaders around the world in the 20's and 30's were gutless fops and you have the recipe for WW II.

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
And look at the overwhelming majority of past European colonies. All most all of them have had ruthless civil wars following Europe's withdrawal.

Exactly. So, what does that suggest about Iraq and Afghanistan in a few years/decades time? The fact is these countries are fundamentally different, culturally and politically, from anything in the West therefore to try and apply Western values is never going to work. They've had hundreds if not thousands of years of doing things their way and they don't take kindly to new 'foreign' ideas being introduced.

What the US is doing is effectively empire building, spreading its influence to control regions that it deems dangerous or, contentious point, economically important. Nothing wrong with that, it's what any country in the US's position has done in the past, it's just amusing that the US is desperately portraying itself as non-imperial.

[John Ashcroft]

Yeah, I was really talking about the reparations levied on Germany post WW1, but you get the point.

Anyway, there is a marked difference between how the U.S. follows up and how Europe does. Most people thought the same exact way about Japan after WW2. "They're different over there", and "They have a whole different value structure, they'll never become democratic"

All proven wrong by time and U.S. commitment. And I hardly think Japan consideres itself U.S. territory...

Now European colonies? Sorry, but you all simply "up and leave" when you're done playing Emperor. And that leads to civil war pretty much in every case. And again, if the U.S. were an imperial power, the world would be a much different place. It's our freedom that's unique in the world, and we spread it. It's entirely different than conquering the world.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Anyway, there is a marked difference between how the U.S. follows up and how Europe does. Most people thought the same exact way about Japan after WW2. "They're different over there", and "They have a whole different value structure, they'll never become democratic"

The difference being that Japan was well and truly beaten, it's major cities were flattened. Iraq on the other hand is pretty much unscathed so it's population don't exactly feel the need to accept someone elses hand of friendship.

Originally posted by John Ashcroft

All proven wrong by time and U.S. commitment. And I hardly think Japan consideres itself U.S. territory...

As with most things that depends on which Japanese people you talk to.

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Now European colonies? Sorry, but you all simply "up and leave" when you're done playing Emperor. And that leads to civil war pretty much in every case. And again, if the U.S. were an imperial power, the world would be a much different place. It's our freedom that's unique in the world, and we spread it. It's entirely different than conquering the world.

We upped and left because after 2 World Wars there wasn't any cash left to maintain empires and our arms were being twisted by the new kid on the block (any ideas who?) to give up the territories because they deserved their 'freedom'. So as a result Britain, France etc bail out of most of Africa and Asia and the whole place goes to pot. The only saving grace was the Soviet Union which at least kept a lid on the problems thanks to the Cold War.

Anyway how is 'your freedom' any different to someone in the UK, Japan or god forbid France? At the end of the day we all get up in the morning, have breakfast, go to work, have lunch, go home, have a meal, go to bed and vote every few years for a load of politicians that usually screw up after a honeymoon period. Doesn't seem there's anything unique in that.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Another thing about the Japanese example is that they were pretty westernised before WW II, at least in the case of the day to day lives of ordinary Japanese. I'm not sure of the history of Japanese government so if you can tell me how Tojo got to power that would be helpful. Who came before him?

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
Anyway how is 'your freedom' any different to someone in the UK, Japan or god forbid France? At the end of the day we all get up in the morning, have breakfast, go to work, have lunch, go home, have a meal, go to bed and vote every few years for a load of politicians that usually screw up after a honeymoon period. Doesn't seem there's anything unique in that. [/B]

What's your income tax rate? How's about VAT? How's about sales tax?

This is a large part of the "freedom" I'm referring to... Freedom from government intervention and taxation without representation (although unfortunately these freedoms are being erroded year after year here too).

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
What's your income tax rate? How's about VAT? How's about sales tax?

This is a large part of the "freedom" I'm referring to... Freedom from government intervention and taxation without representation (although unfortunately these freedoms are being erroded year after year here too).

Fair enough point. Fuel prices in particular spring to mind.

Well if those freedoms are being eroded I reckon you'll have about another 200 years and then you'll be as messed up as us!

Look at it this way, at least you won't be around to see it.

[John Ashcroft]

You never know... After all, I'm John Ashcroft, the great Satan himself! :D

[Mr Grimsdale]

Nah, you can't be that bad. As soon as I see Oklahoma I can't help but think of Howard Keel.