Putin launches unconstitutional coup d'etat

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
where'd you even get that quote from?

USDOJ website - yes i know, can't trust that source, right?

[ODShowtime]

Trust the real Ashcroft? Hell no. That is the worse source possible!

[Big Train]

You'd never know about real violations of the Patriot Act because they're kept secret.

Well, MOST crimes are kept secret. However, unlike the chop shop or crackhouse around the corner, real abuses of the Patriot Act are MUCH more likely to be heard about. You think if someone just disappeared talking to the Feds, the family wouldn't have something to say about it or for sure the local CBS anchorman who wants to make a name for himself?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
No, your post headline relates this to Bush so I'm wondering just how.

Well, Junior said after his first meeting with "Pooty-poot" back in 2001, that he looked into Vladdy's soul and found a kindred spirit.

And now that Putin is essentially replicating the post-terra power grab strategy from Junior (which he replicated from his granddad's buddy Adolf) it would appear that Junior was actually right about something.

They are kindred spirits after all. Two power mad fascists, using a manufactured crisis to rape democracy.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
Probable casue is still needed.

"As was true before the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted, the probable cause standard in a criminal case is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that the person is using the facilities sought to be monitored or searched in connection with the crime; in a foreign intelligence case, probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power and that the facilities sought to be monitored or searched are being used by an agent of a foreign power. In both types of investigations, probable cause must be established to obtain a wiretap order or search warrant. As was true even before the USA PATRIOT Act, lesser intrusions, such as requests for records from third parties, require a lower standard. "

And yes, the job of a city council is to pass binding measures within THEIR JURISDICTION of matters pertaining to that locality - like roads, liquor licenses, taxes etc - city councils have no business wasting taxpayer money by spending their time passing MEANINGLESS non-binding measures so that they may vent their collective spleens against the Evil Bush.

Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. Also, The government can now serve a single wiretap on ANY person or entity nationwide, even if that person or entity is NOT named in the order. The government need not make ANY showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to any criminal investigation. This means ANYONE might have their phone tapped. This also means that the government now can spy on the internet habits of ANY American, even when not suspected of ANY crime. The government is also NOT obliged to report back to the court, OR inform YOU, at all."

Section 218

"The government to now permitted to carry out secret searches and covert wiretaps without showing probable cause. They must merely 'certify' (NOT prove) that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This evades Americans' protection under the 4th Amendment."

http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

[ELVIS]

Well, if it does, what illegal activity are you conducting on your phone and computer ??

You can trust me, and the government already knows, right ??

God forbid, they might actually stop a terrorist act!

Oh, I forgot. Bush is the terrorist...

[Pink Spider]

The 4th amendment was to prevent the state from becoming big brother before the term was coined.

It's not about stopping terrorist acts. The Patriot Act is a form of terrorism on the citizenry itself. A police state would be effective in curbing dissent, "terrorism", etc. There's proof of that in many countries. It doesn't mean that it should come to pass.

Do you want that here?

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
The 4th amendment was to prevent the state from becoming big brother before the term was coined.

I am aware of that...

The Patriot Act is a form of terrorism on the citizenry itself.

That is just plain silly. Lookup Terrorism...

A police state would be effective in curbing dissent, "terrorism", etc. There's proof of that in many countries. It doesn't mean that it should come to pass.

Do you want that here?

No, but what this entails is a far cry from that...

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by ELVIS


I am aware of that...

Then why don't you agree with it?

That is just plain silly. Lookup Terrorism...

There is no definitive definition of terrorism. It may come to a surprise to statists, but the government can terrorize the people. They have that in the Patriot Act.

No, but what this entails is a far cry from that...

Actually, it's not. It's a big first step into becoming like that when your rights against illegal search and seizure cease to exist.

[ELVIS]

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, just a bit extreme...

Excuse the pun...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
You'd never know about real violations of the Patriot Act because they're kept secret.

Well, MOST crimes are kept secret. However, unlike the chop shop or crackhouse around the corner, real abuses of the Patriot Act are MUCH more likely to be heard about. You think if someone just disappeared talking to the Feds, the family wouldn't have something to say about it or for sure the local CBS anchorman who wants to make a name for himself?

That's a good point, but I would imagine that a lot of the people who would dissappear were foriegners whose families wouldn't have a say in the US.

The bottom line is that power is made to be abused. When given new powers, authority stretches it as far as they can. Then there's no way left to get the freedom back.

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. Also, The government can now serve a single wiretap on ANY person or entity nationwide, even if that person or entity is NOT named in the order. The government need not make ANY showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to any criminal investigation. This means ANYONE might have their phone tapped. This also means that the government now can spy on the internet habits of ANY American, even when not suspected of ANY crime. The government is also NOT obliged to report back to the court, OR inform YOU, at all."

Section 218

"The government to now permitted to carry out secret searches and covert wiretaps without showing probable cause. They must merely 'certify' (NOT prove) that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This evades Americans' protection under the 4th Amendment."

http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

Sorry, but I'm going to go with the DOJ source, you can stick with your left wing kook source.

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by FORD
Well, Junior said after his first meeting with "Pooty-poot" back in 2001, that he looked into Vladdy's soul and found a kindred spirit.

And now that Putin is essentially replicating the post-terra power grab strategy from Junior (which he replicated from his granddad's buddy Adolf) it would appear that Junior was actually right about something.

They are kindred spirits after all. Two power mad fascists, using a manufactured crisis to rape democracy.

None of what you wrote means squat. Try something concrete, plausible, verifiable etc.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant.
http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

The distinction between the world "terrorist" and "criminal" in this passage cannot be ignored. This act was passed to prevent terrorism, or at least that's how they billed it. But using the word "criminal" means that these new powers will extend to all law enforcement. This bill was meant to be around for a long time and to have powers far broader than checking to see if Ibrahim d/l'd the Anarchist Cookbook at the local library.

And Elvis, for the record, there are plenty of things that are against the law in the US that are not morally wrong or harmful to society.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
That's a good point, but I would imagine that a lot of the people who would dissappear were foriegners whose families wouldn't have a say in the US.

The bottom line is that power is made to be abused. When given new powers, authority stretches it as far as they can. Then there's no way left to get the freedom back.

There is a distinction here then. If they are foreigners, they aren't having there Constitutional rights taken away, as they don't have any.

There is a certain fear here that I find very odd, not just from you, but from all opposed to the act. The ACLU makes it out to seem like we are giving the government the power to control us, which is just silly.People going missing in the night, is just another bogeyman theory.

As far as what the act actually states and does, I'm with Schultz, stick with the DOJ version, not the scare em sites.