Songwriting credits on the new album

[Luke D]

Thanks everyone! I thought maybe there was the possibility of a nasty legal battle in the future.

[VHscraps]

I think song publishing is based on top line melody and lyrics, along with the chord structure of the tune .

My thinking is that Mike was only ever given songwriting credit as part of a 'one-for-all, all-for-one' scenario that young bands often have to maintain a sense of unity and togetherness.

I'm not denigrating MA's contribution to CVH, but how many songs did Mike write outside of Van Halen?? Why no solo album? He's obviously not a songwriter, but works with a band as part of a team. I'm sure he made some contribution to all those albums (I don't think EVH told him what to play - if you listen to Ed's bass playing on Hagar's pukey solo album from 86, it is obvious the man cannot play bass).

There's a certain unfairness in all this, in general - people who've contributed substantial instrumental parts to songs, don't necessarily get a credit (if it's a studio player, they may get a fee).

Have you heard the song 'Peg' by Steely Dan? Bass on that played by Chuck Rainey, a famous session dude. You could argue that the bass line is a BIG part of that song, but all he got was his fee as a studio musician - those have just been the rules since way back when.

Another one that sticks out for that relates to this idea of the melody being the determining factor is a song recorded by a UK band, The Verve, titled 'Bittersweet Symphony' - a damn great song in my view - but it took a musical motif from an orchestral version of a Rolling Stones song. They had agreed to use a sample from this orchestral version of 'The Last Time', and the band wrote their own lyrics - I mean, it sounds ZERO like 'The Last Time' - but Jagger / Richards get the sole writing credit!!

The Verve - Bittersweet Symphony


The Stones - The Last Time


Now, somebody explain to me how the Stones can get 100% credit for 'Bittersweet Symphony' - because that melody on the string refrain was written by them? Surely it has more to do with the arranger / conductor who scored the orchestral version that the sample is lifted from on the Verve song?!

The Last Time - Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra

[academic punk]

I think song publishing is based on top line melody and lyrics, along with the chord structure of the tune .

My thinking is that Mike was only ever given songwriting credit as part of a 'one-for-all, all-for-one' scenario that young bands often have to maintain a sense of unity and togetherness.

I'm not denigrating MA's contribution to CVH, but how many songs did Mike write outside of Van Halen?? Why no solo album? He's obviously not a songwriter, but works with a band as part of a team. I'm sure he made some contribution to all those albums (I don't think EVH told him what to play - if you listen to Ed's bass playing on Hagar's pukey solo album from 86, it is obvious the man cannot play bass).

There's a certain unfairness in all this, in general - people who've contributed substantial instrumental parts to songs, don't necessarily get a credit (if it's a studio player, they may get a fee).

Have you heard the song 'Peg' by Steely Dan? Bass on that played by Chuck Rainey, a famous session dude. You could argue that the bass line is a BIG part of that song, but all he got was his fee as a studio musician - those have just been the rules since way back when.

Another one that sticks out for that relates to this idea of the melody being the determining factor is a song recorded by a UK band, The Verve, titled 'Bittersweet Symphony' - a damn great song in my view - but it took a musical motif from an orchestral version of a Rolling Stones song. They had agreed to use a sample from this orchestral version of 'The Last Time', and the band wrote their own lyrics - I mean, it sounds ZERO like 'The Last Time' - but Jagger / Richards get the sole writing credit!!

Well, there are plenty of examples of people writing parts for their instruments that turned out to be...uhm...instrumental to the songs and not seeing the (to my mind, deserved) songwriting credit. That's a different kind of dispute (the most egregious being The Verve example that you cited). The lyricist (Richard Ashcroft) didn't even get royalties! Not only does the music sound completely different, he wrote the damn song! But, nope, not a dime.

To hang with the Stones as examples, Bill Wyman created the main riff for Jumpin' Jack Flash, never saw a dime. He also wrote a great bassline for Miss You, and Billy Preston apparently wrote the main riff, but no songwriting credit for either of them: Richards - who wasn't even at the session when the song was written, gets the credit. And Billy Preston apparently said "Thank you and fuck you". Nothing from nothing, etc. Mick Taylor even left the band for the same reason: no songwriting credit.

Yes, Eddie and Roth have both said that in an act of band unity they included the entire band for songwriting credits. And if you remember Roth's lawsuit years back, he made very clear that Mike saw ten times the record royalties that he did, even though Roth created all the melodies, lyrics, chose what part goes where, etc.

And Eddie and Mike have both said that Eddie told Mike what to play.

[academic punk]

Oh! The best example is Queen - and not for Ice, Ice Baby.

When Bohemian Rhapsody was released as a single, you know who made the most money? The drummer! Why? Because his song "I Love My Car" was randomly chosen as the B-Side. After that, the band spent so much time arguing about songwriting credits, that they eventually realized it would be more productive and they'd spend less time arguing if they all just took equal credit for all songs.

Kurt Cobain after Nirvana hit retroactively stripped the three-way credit from his compositions. Like Mikey, he told his bandmates, "Either agree to this, or there will be no tour for In Utero."

It ain't called the music BIX for nothing, kids...

[VHscraps]

Yeah, the Mick Taylor / Stones case is one that stands out. 'Moonlight Mile' on Sticky Fingers - supposedly another one where Keith wasn't even at the session. Taylor was on the verge of being made homeless recently 'cos he couldn't earn enough money from gigging to pay his bills, and getting zero from the Stones.

Ry Coooder also claimed that the riff on 'Honky Tonk Women' was his - he played on the sessions for the movie 'Performance'.

It's a dirty business ...

[Droomer5150]

That's what I was wondering, but then again they've often said Michael Anthony didn't contribute anything to the song writing , and I think he even admited something along the lines of "letting Ed do his thing while he held the band together in the subsonic frequencies". However I could be wrong? And I think back in 2004 when the trainwreck tour ended Eddie got Mike to sign away any future rights he had to the bands music from that point. Don't take my word for it though. Either way hopefully one day the band we do a reunion show or something with Mike but for now I'm 99% happy with the current lineup and couldn't be more excited even with Mike out of the band, to me Van Halen is Eddie and Alex!

[VHscraps]

Even before 2004, as well - at the time of the '96 Best Of Van Halen, Mike's credits were already changed on some tunes. On Jump, for one, his name wasn't on the credits anymore. Just looking at ASCAP, he's no longer credited as a writer on any of the 1984 album.

[RUDE SADDLE]

Very good question. I dont see a chance at all. I'm sure that's all they want is Mikes name on the album in anyway. The music has always been Dave and Ed at heart.

[Seshmeister]

One of the oddest song royalty cases I've heard involved Men at Work's Down Under. The Aussie court decided the flute solo of Down Under was ripped off from a popular children's song and ordered Men to pay 5% of their royalties to the publishing company that owns the rights to "Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree." Here's the story.

Talking of Aussies there was the even more unlikely Rolf Harris Adam Ant thing.

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[Seshmeister]

Even before 2004, as well - at the time of the '96 Best Of Van Halen, Mike's credits were already changed on some tunes. On Jump, for one, his name wasn't on the credits anymore. Just looking at ASCAP, he's no longer credited as a writer on any of the 1984 album.

Do you think Alex Van Halen would get writing credits if he wasn't Eddie's brother? My guess is that most of the time he got a writing credit just for being there when Eddie was writing riffs.

[VHscraps]

Indeed. That's something that comes up in Hagar's book - once Van Hagar started to fall out with each other, he wanted to know why Al was getting songwriting royalties. He even says somewhere in the book 'when Dave was in the band, it was Dave and Eddie who wrote all the songs'.

[DLR Bridge]

I always felt that Mike played his ass off with his own personal style from his '74 audition in the Van Halen's garage through WACF. I think if he ever writes a book, we'll find out that he played little or no bass in the studio from Fair Warning on.

[VHscraps]

Haha - Rolf Harris, the secret source of rock'n'roll.

Alice Cooper did one of Rolf's songs, 'Sun Arise' on the 1971 album, Love it to Death.



I once passed Rolf walking up Hope Street in Glasgow on a dead Sunday morning, about 10 years ago. Some cars went past and sounded their horn - Rolf waved, of course.

He's a BIG guy.

[Vinnie Velvet]

What happened to Mike's credits on 1984?

In the liner notes in BOV1, Mike does not get any writing credit for Panama and Jump - whereas originally of course he did.

I remember when Panama was featured in the movie 'Superbad' (2007) and at the end of the movie's credits it again states under Panama, "written by David Lee Roth, Edward Van Halen and Alex Van Halen."

????

[academic punk]

The same thing that happened to Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic's songwriting credits on Nevermind.

IN each case, the VH brothers and Kurt Cobain told their bandmate(s) that either they cede songwriting royalties or there would be no tour.

Over time, the royalties might make more money. But the tour generates MILLIONS in the span of months.

What would you do? (Plus, it must be said: it's the honest thing to do. If you didn't write it, you shouldn't get it)