'Van Halen Rising' Book Chat with Greg Renoff - Oct. 17th, 9pm ET

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Great Book So far.

Thanks To Pete's Brother for The Book.

HMMMMMMMm.......Even Ted Templeman signed My Book.

Some Crazy fooker Also Signed it.........No Pants.

Even Mark Stone signed it on page 125.

did any of the RA group sign it? don't know why i wouldn't have thought of that?

[vandeleur]

That would have been cool especially vain .

[PETE'S BROTHER]

That would have been cool especially vain .

i got his on mine fo sho.

[Terry]

Oh, it's night and day, Terry... You'll see after one or two chapters of VHR....

While I don't disparage anyone that's previously put out any sort of Van Halen book, 'case even the lousy ones entail a shitload of work to publish it, but VHR has re-written to book (no pun intended) on Van Halen documentaries....

Now, the challenge to Greg is to write the '78-'85 era, if he indeed decides to do it....

It's a really good read. We all knew the basic skeleton of the pre-1978 years, but I doubt many (if any) of us knew close to the amount of detail in the book. New interviews from sources who were actually there when it all happened (as opposed to just utilizing quotes of band members from old interviews which I've already read), virtually none of the pics in the book were any I'd ever seen before, a compelling narrative that makes you feel like you were transported back to that time and place.

Not easy to write a book about Van Halen that ends up being such a page-turner, but Van Halen Rising pulled it off. I particularly enjoyed the story about Ed overdosing on PCP and multiple interviews illustrating Roth's persistence in wriggling his way into the band when neither of the Van Halens particularly wanted him to join.

[chuckjitsu]

...Roth's persistence in wriggling his way into the band when neither of the Van Halens particularly wanted him to join.

That struck me too. We'd all heard the "cheaper to have him in the band than keep renting his PA" story, but that oversimplified how Dave actually ended up in the band. I also didn't realize how truly vital Dave was in the early days to the band's ultimate success. The band's rise through the club ranks was also much more of a slog than I realized. It made me wonder how Dave could quit after so much hard work and effort to get where he and the band ultimately got. With the help of hindsight, perhaps the very thing that was a key component to their success (Dave's personality) made a split/implosion inevitable. (Not that the Van Halens aren't culpable as well, but Dave is the one who chose to leave)

[DONNIEP]

That struck me too. We'd all heard the "cheaper to have him in the band than keep renting his PA" story, but that oversimplified how Dave actually ended up in the band. I also didn't realize how truly vital Dave was in the early days to the band's ultimate success. The band's rise through the club ranks was also much more of a slog than I realized. It made me wonder how Dave could quit after so much hard work and effort to get where he and the band ultimately got. With the help of hindsight, perhaps the very thing that was a key component to their success (Dave's personality) made a split/implosion inevitable. (Not that the Van Halens aren't culpable as well, but Dave is the one who chose to leave)

Well, as far as Dave splitting, we're kinda to blame for that. I'd bet we all bought the CFTH EP. Of course, there will be a lot of people who will say they didn't buy it because they were dead set against Roth doing anything outside of the band. Bullshit.

Dave, whether intentionally or not, put out the feelers with that four track cassette and it sold over a million copies right out of the box. And three of the songs were songs almost none of us had ever heard before. Or didn't realize we'd heard them. Nobody here was running around singing Easy Street or Coconut Grove before that record dropped. So we showed Dave that the audience was there. And then the videos were hits. And then we had the perfect storm:

Dave has a vehicle to continue the visual and put out new music - via the movie

Ed and Al are pretty much drunk as shit all the time and refuse to work

Dave refuses to wait to work because he literally is the biggest rock star on the planet and he's seen he can be successful without the band.

The rest is history...

[Terry]

That struck me too. We'd all heard the "cheaper to have him in the band than keep renting his PA" story, but that oversimplified how Dave actually ended up in the band. I also didn't realize how truly vital Dave was in the early days to the band's ultimate success. The band's rise through the club ranks was also much more of a slog than I realized. It made me wonder how Dave could quit after so much hard work and effort to get where he and the band ultimately got. With the help of hindsight, perhaps the very thing that was a key component to their success (Dave's personality) made a split/implosion inevitable. (Not that the Van Halens aren't culpable as well, but Dave is the one who chose to leave)

What the book concludes is that indeed Eddie's guitar playing was a huge draw, but left to their own devices the Van Halens would have gladly focused on replicating the excesses of 60s rock (long solos and elongated technical displays). All of that would have been fine for high school talent shows and backyard keggers, but wasn't going to get them slots playing clubs. Whatever Roth's shortcomings on a technical level as far as singing went, he made up for it in other ways.

No question Eddie was a monster guitar player. What set Eddie apart from a lot of his peers and later his imitators was that Eddie was well-rounded. Eddie could write. It was the SONGS that set Van Halen and Eddie apart.

Around 1984 or so going forward, there was a bumper-crop of flash guitar players who burst onto the scene. Some of them could, on a technical level, do things I actually doubt Eddie would have been able to pull off short of a LOT of practice. Am thinking along the lines of Malmsteen, Gilbert and MacAlpine (and to a slightly lesser extent Vai and Satriani). None of those guys ever really came up with material that had nearly as much appeal to non-musicians/fans who don't play guitar as Van Halen did. And that's what makes the difference. You can have a focused appeal on gear-heads/amateur shredders by wanking out one brilliant technical display after another, but at the end of the day it is SONGS that separate shredders from songwriters.

Ed could blaze with the best of them, but he had that fantastic knack for coming up with all those memorable hooks, riffs and tunes and balancing his technical prowess within the context of great songs. Contrast that with, say, George Lynch: wonderful guitar player but not nearly the songwriter Eddie was.

[chuckjitsu]

Well, as far as Dave splitting, we're kinda to blame for that. I'd bet we all bought the CFTH EP. Of course, there will be a lot of people who will say they didn't buy it because they were dead set against Roth doing anything outside of the band. Bullshit.

Dave, whether intentionally or not, put out the feelers with that four track cassette and it sold over a million copies right out of the box. And three of the songs were songs almost none of us had ever heard before. Or didn't realize we'd heard them. Nobody here was running around singing Easy Street or Coconut Grove before that record dropped. So we showed Dave that the audience was there. And then the videos were hits. And then we had the perfect storm:

Dave has a vehicle to continue the visual and put out new music - via the movie

Ed and Al are pretty much drunk as shit all the time and refuse to work

Dave refuses to wait to work because he literally is the biggest rock star on the planet and he's seen he can be successful without the band.

The rest is history...

The irony is that it was Dave's success in Van Halen that made that all possible. If unknown shlub Dave Roth puts out CFTH, does anybody care? Does a movie studio agree to make a movie with same unknown shlub? Nope. And I think you're exactly right as to how the perfect storm played out. With the luxury of hindsight, I'm betting Dave would make some different choices in '85.

[chuckjitsu]

What the book concludes is that indeed Eddie's guitar playing was a huge draw, but left to their own devices the Van Halens would have gladly focused on replicating the excesses of 60s rock (long solos and elongated technical displays). All of that would have been fine for high school talent shows and backyard keggers, but wasn't going to get them slots playing clubs. Whatever Roth's shortcomings on a technical level as far as singing went, he made up for it in other ways.

No question Eddie was a monster guitar player. What set Eddie apart from a lot of his peers and later his imitators was that Eddie was well-rounded. Eddie could write. It was the SONGS that set Van Halen and Eddie apart.

Around 1984 or so going forward, there was a bumper-crop of flash guitar players who burst onto the scene. Some of them could, on a technical level, do things I actually doubt Eddie would have been able to pull off short of a LOT of practice. Am thinking along the lines of Malmsteen, Gilbert and MacAlpine (and to a slightly lesser extent Vai and Satriani). None of those guys ever really came up with material that had nearly as much appeal to non-musicians/fans who don't play guitar as Van Halen did. And that's what makes the difference. You can have a focused appeal on gear-heads/amateur shredders by wanking out one brilliant technical display after another, but at the end of the day it is SONGS that separate shredders from songwriters.

Ed could blaze with the best of them, but he had that fantastic knack for coming up with all those memorable hooks, riffs and tunes and balancing his technical prowess within the context of great songs. Contrast that with, say, George Lynch: wonderful guitar player but not nearly the songwriter Eddie was.

You're exactly right Terry. Virtuosity without the ability to write good songs is basically uninteresting wankery. Several years ago I read about how great buckethead was, so I listened to a bunch of songs on youtube and it was just one yawner after the next. Yeah, the technical proficiency was there, but the songs were completely uninteresting to me, with the exception of the song Jordan. So yeah, there are guys "better" than Ed from a technical standpoint, but when you factor in the ability to actually write good tunes, Ed comes out on top.

[beavrtek]

Ed could blaze with the best of them, but he had that fantastic knack for coming up with all those memorable hooks, riffs and tunes and balancing his technical prowess within the context of great songs. Contrast that with, say, George Lynch: wonderful guitar player but not nearly the songwriter Eddie was.

Though GL isn't as captivating as EVH to watch, Lynch, imo, writes well. If his 1st solo album (Wicked Sensation) had been released about five years earlier, it would have sold by the truck load. I still believe that that record is one of the best rock records ever made, and Lynch wrote the songs... all of them.

[DLR Bridge]

Though GL isn't as captivating as EVH to watch, Lynch, imo, writes well. If his 1st solo album (Wicked Sensation) had been released about five years earlier, it would have sold by the truck load. I still believe that that record is one of the best rock records ever made, and Lynch wrote the songs... all of them.

That's a bold statement. Definitely a handful of tasty riffage on there, but a fair share of clunkers, too. Not sure what the 5 weeks difference would have made, but the guy wasn't about to break any musical ground with Oni Logan dishing out huff and puff lyrics about his burning soul.

[DLR Bridge]

You're exactly right Terry. Virtuosity without the ability to write good songs is basically uninteresting wankery. Several years ago I read about how great buckethead was, so I listened to a bunch of songs on youtube and it was just one yawner after the next. Yeah, the technical proficiency was there, but the songs were completely uninteresting to me, with the exception of the song Jordan. So yeah, there are guys "better" than Ed from a technical standpoint, but when you factor in the ability to actually write good tunes, Ed comes out on top.

Very true. That's also why Ed's own ship was sinking by the time OU812 came out. By '89, his imitators were blowing past him because their mediocre melodies were better than, say, Sucker In A 3 Piece. F.U.C.K. had some nice guitar moments, but Ed is pretty much the riff equivalent of a super nova. He created the majority of his finer moments before Ted stumbled through the door.

[DONNIEP]

Very true. That's also why Ed's own ship was sinking by the time OU812 came out. By '89, his imitators were blowing past him because their mediocre melodies were better than, say, Sucker In A 3 Piece. F.U.C.K. had some nice guitar moments, but Ed is pretty much the riff equivalent of a super nova. He created the majority of his finer moments before Ted stumbled through the door.

Yep, Ed had a good run of several years then...nothing. Well, not exactly nothing. He did bestow upongst us the insanely good How Many Say I. Oh yeah, and that track he did for that porno. Which is kinda fitting since it was basically Ed jerkin off for like seven minutes straight. Who knows, maybe he'll come up with something good for the next record. Unfortunately Sam will probably write stupid lyrics over it, stuff about boners and breakfast and crap like that.

[Von Halen]

Though GL isn't as captivating as EVH to watch, Lynch, imo, writes well. If his 1st solo album (Wicked Sensation) had been released about five years earlier, it would have sold by the truck load. I still believe that that record is one of the best rock records ever made, and Lynch wrote the songs... all of them.

Even if you don't like Dokken, Lynch has written some fantastic songs on the guitar. His rhythm and lead combination is stellar.

To compare flash in the pan speed and no substance guitarists like Macalpine, Malmsteen and even to an extent, Vai, to Ed or George Lynch, is asinine.

While Vai has written some decent songs on the guitar, he he has never really written much with a singer, that has stood the test of time. His best songs with Dave are mediocre at best rhythm wise. They had to have Tuggle, to fill all the dead space Vai left.

Satriani is the same way. I haven't heard all the Chickenfoot stuff, but what I have heard, was mediocre, at best. We know Chickenfoot as a whole is mediocre, but I'm talking about the songs as guitar songs. Nothing earth shattering at all, from what I heard.

None of those fuckers can write a hook like Lynch or Ed.

[Von Halen]

I think Ed still wrote some great riffage after Dave left. Not a lot, but some. I would love to have heard Dave's lyrics and vocals over riffs like Black and Blue, Best Of Both Worlds and Humans Being. Especially the latter. Ed sounds angry in that song. Some angry lyrics and vocals by Dave would have made that a killer tune.