UPROXX: 1996 VMA's - A Look Back at What Could Have Been

[Seshmeister]

I was a little too young and missed it but a single show in a muddy field in daylight wasn't really ideal.

Some other people who post here were there so should chime up.



It was a pretty insane lineup and you can imagine ACDC with a lightshow working better with an increasingly drunk crowd. My memory is that the reviews were at the time in the press were good but (rightly) questioned the need for a bass, drum and guitar solo in a relatively short festival set.


Aug 18 1984
Van Halen Setlist at Donington Park, Castle Donington, England

Setlist
Unchained
Hot for Teacher
Drum Solo
On Fire
Runnin' With the Devil
Little Guitars
House of Pain
Bass Solo
I'll Wait
Everybody Wants Some!!
Oh, Pretty Woman
1984
Jump
Guitar Solo
Panama

Encore:
You Really Got Me

[chuckjitsu]

Van Halen blew it in 1996.

My sense of what happened is that Ed probably did want to reunite with Dave when they started recording the two BOV1 tracks beyond just a quickie for the greatest hits album. Or that the idea of Dave rejoining the band for a full-length album and a tour wasn't something that was 100% out of the question in Ed's mind when Dave first walked into the 5150 studio in 1996. I think what became apparent to Ed fairly quickly was that Dave wasn't going to be anybody different than he was back when he was in Van Halen. And for whatever misgivings they had with Hagar by the time 1996 rolled around, Hagar for most of his time in the group was a pretty easy fit personality-wise. Plus, Hagar wasn't a dominant or controlling person in the manner that Dave was. After 11 years of working with the personality type of Hagar, Ed just didn't want to go back to dealing with working with Dave, where Dave would be expecting to have his ideas about musical content and the group image taken seriously and on equal footing with those of Eddie, Alex and their management.

Clearly, the Van Halens and their management well before the VMAs had decided to, at the very least, leave their options open. Why else would they have been auditioning Malloy, Cherone and god knows who else during the time frame between the recording of the two BOV1 tracks and the VMAs? And I really don't think either of the Van Halens had any idea by the time 1996 rolled around there would still be a massive amount of fan sentiment favoring Roth rejoining the group. Shit, by the time 1996 rolled around, Roth's solo career had basically tanked. Doubtless the Van Halens felt that if they were able to survive Roth leaving the band in 1985, when Roth was at his career zenith in terms of popularity and cultural relevance, they'd be able to do so with far greater ease in 1996. It wasn't an illogical assumption to make on their part. IF they came up with someone truly unique for a third lead singer.

I just remember laughing when the dust finally settled and we found out the new lead singer - the guy Van Halen passed over Roth and a CVH reunion tour for - was Gary Cherone. I mean, whatever one wanted to make of Hagar's career before he joined Van Halen, at least Hagar had HAD a successful career in commercial terms before joining Van Halen. Gary Cherone was viewed as a guy who had one hit single under his belt before Van Halen...with a 2nd-rate hair metal band....and the song was a 'unplugged'-type tune, to boot!

Like, Van Halen trying to launch themselves for a third time was not going to be an easy task regardless. Van Halen 3 was going to be a tough sell to begin with, and that would have been the case even had the band NOT had their brief dalliance with Roth in 1996. To get people hyped up and excited over CVH reuniting, then trying a bait-and-switch with Gary Cherone as the new lead singer? That lineup was pretty much doomed to fail before they even started recording. Mitch Malloy was smart enough to know that him joining the band after the Van Halens had teased the public with a Roth reunion was a sure loser for any new Van Halen lineup, and wisely bowed out.

The ten years following the 1996 shenanigans were not kind to Van Halen, or Roth. By the time they got it together, too many substance abuse issues and the onset of old age had sapped whatever chances for success a Roth reunion would have. Sure, the band have made good money since 2006 with Dave, but the much-hoped for Roth reunion hasn't really amounted to much.

I would slightly disagree in that I'm not sure how serious Ed ever was about Dave being back permanently. I do think Dave was in denial to a degree about what those two BOV1 songs meant relative to him being back, but Ed's duplicity certainly didn't help. Hell, even at the infamous VMAs Ed was still leaving shit open ended when he could've ended all the speculation right there, which would've been helpful since Cherone was already hired. Just a couple of days ago I watched pieces of their interview with Kurt Loder at the VMAs and if I remember correctly, even there Ed said that it was two songs, two videos and then they'd go from there (or some such sentiment). Well, "there" was continuing with Cherone, so why give the impression that there was some sort of future with Dave?

I do agree that the other 3 guys, particularly Ed, underestimated not only the sentiment of the crowd at the VMAs, but fan reaction in general to Van Halen with Dave. When they walked out and received that ovation, the only person who thought it was "half assed" was Ed. I sure as hell was pumped when they came out together, just like everybody else!

Cherone on vocals certainly added insult to injury for me, but honestly, I don't think it would've made a difference who they got at that point as I was just pissed and incredulous that the Dave thing went the way it did. Golden fuckin' opportunity to reclaim the throne and kick ass with Dave, but why do that when you can put out How Many Say I instead. Sigh. What a waste of an opportunity.

I hadn't listened to them in literally years, but I'd forgotten how much I liked those two BOV1 tunes. Pity that those songs have basically been forgotten because I'd enjoy hearing them live. It's like those songs don't even exist to them anymore. What're you gonna do, right?

[Terry]

I would slightly disagree in that I'm not sure how serious Ed ever was about Dave being back permanently. I do think Dave was in denial to a degree about what those two BOV1 songs meant relative to him being back, but Ed's duplicity certainly didn't help. Hell, even at the infamous VMAs Ed was still leaving shit open ended when he could've ended all the speculation right there, which would've been helpful since Cherone was already hired. Just a couple of days ago I watched pieces of their interview with Kurt Loder at the VMAs and if I remember correctly, even there Ed said that it was two songs, two videos and then they'd go from there (or some such sentiment). Well, "there" was continuing with Cherone, so why give the impression that there was some sort of future with Dave?

I do agree that the other 3 guys, particularly Ed, underestimated not only the sentiment of the crowd at the VMAs, but fan reaction in general to Van Halen with Dave. When they walked out and received that ovation, the only person who thought it was "half assed" was Ed. I sure as hell was pumped when they came out together, just like everybody else!

Cherone on vocals certainly added insult to injury for me, but honestly, I don't think it would've made a difference who they got at that point as I was just pissed and incredulous that the Dave thing went the way it did. Golden fuckin' opportunity to reclaim the throne and kick ass with Dave, but why do that when you can put out How Many Say I instead. Sigh. What a waste of an opportunity.

I hadn't listened to them in literally years, but I'd forgotten how much I liked those two BOV1 tunes. Pity that those songs have basically been forgotten because I'd enjoy hearing them live. It's like those songs don't even exist to them anymore. What're you gonna do, right?

Well, I think Ed in the late spring of 1996 was entertaining the idea of reuniting with Dave seriously enough that he told Hagar they were getting Roth back in the band when [Eddie] called [Hagar] and told him he should go back to being a solo artist. I tend to doubt Ed had a master plan gamed out from before he recorded the BOV1 tracks with Dave where he was planning from the get-go to string Dave along, rehearse with other singers, do the VMAs, let the public think the band were reuniting until BOV1 came out so the album sales wouldn't take a hit, then announce a singer other than Roth was joining. I think all of that was just the way it ended up evolving because Ed decided while the BOV1 recording sessions were happening that he didn't want to do anything with Dave other than the tracks.

To be sure, while even Dave admitted that Ed never told him he was back in the band, Ed also told Dave he wasn't looking for a different singer when he in fact was. As to why Ed simply didn't tell Dave this, or say anything at the VMAs about it...I mean, I think the Van Halen brothers just thought that they made a commercially successful lead singer switch once before, so there would be no reason why they couldn't do it again. Maybe if they had never bothered doing those BOV1 tracks with Roth and the VMA appearance with him, they could have.

Yeah, I quite like those two Roth BOV1 tracks, too. A shame we'll never get to hear them live.

[chuckjitsu]

A couple of further thoughts. Based on subsequent interviews (i believe this came from an interview with Mike), a large factor in why they even went to the VMAs was to play nice with MTV so they'd subsequently play the planned videos for the new BOV1 songs, which of course would be a nice promotional push. Let's say things don't implode at the VMAs and they get along well enough to make those videos. What was the fuckin' plan after that? Gary himself confirmed that he was hired before the VMAs. So was the plan to make these videos (which probably would've cranked up the excitement of Dave being back even more), then at some in the future just announce that Gary had been hired? How was that ever going to work? What if the videos and BOV1 sales had blown up and reignited even further interest in CVH? And we thought the way it went down was bad. It would've been even beyond that if they'd made those videos, pimped BOV1 and rolled with Gary anyway. What a friggin' travesty that would've been. (It was a travesty anyway, but this would've been worse IMO)

[DLR Bridge]

I think they sand-bagged the videos and proper promotion of BOV1 out of fear that it could blow up. Ed definitely had his mind on anything but picking up where '84 left off. He just could not have gone about things any more irratically wrong than he did.

[DFVH5150]

One of the guys on FB posted this Japanese video interview with EVH and AVH after the '96 fiasco.... Interesting AVH says Dave's lyrics were "very intelligent" for the 2 new songs..... Also that they were making a video for MWM before the plug got pulled....

Thanks for posting! Wow, Dave was still in the band at the time (kinda). Interesting shit. I don't think anyone's seen that before.

[Terry]

A couple of further thoughts. Based on subsequent interviews (i believe this came from an interview with Mike), a large factor in why they even went to the VMAs was to play nice with MTV so they'd subsequently play the planned videos for the new BOV1 songs, which of course would be a nice promotional push. Let's say things don't implode at the VMAs and they get along well enough to make those videos. What was the fuckin' plan after that? Gary himself confirmed that he was hired before the VMAs. So was the plan to make these videos (which probably would've cranked up the excitement of Dave being back even more), then at some in the future just announce that Gary had been hired? How was that ever going to work? What if the videos and BOV1 sales had blown up and reignited even further interest in CVH? And we thought the way it went down was bad. It would've been even beyond that if they'd made those videos, pimped BOV1 and rolled with Gary anyway. What a friggin' travesty that would've been. (It was a travesty anyway, but this would've been worse IMO)

I'd have to imagine a lot of the blame came down to the ineptness of Van Halen's then-manager, (who by coincidence had also been Extreme's manager). If the Van Halens in the summer of 1996 weren't smart enough or clued-in enough to realize the public wanted to see Dave rejoin the fold, Van Halen's manager SHOULD have been. I mean, one doesn't necessarily expect rock stars to be tuned into the details of the business end of the music biz, or public relations: that stuff is exactly why bands HAVE managers.

After the two BOV1 tracks were recorded, clearly the band decided they weren't going to reunite with Dave beyond doing promo videos for the tracks. At that point, you're exactly right: what use is it to have Dave come out onstage with them at the VMAs? A smart manager would have decided that wouldn't be a good idea considering the group were going with a different singer anyway, and would have been strong enough to resist any pressure from MTV to insist that Roth appear.

And you're right that in the end it really didn't matter much anyway that Roth decided not to make any promo videos for the two songs. The tunes got plenty of radio play, and the greatest hits release sold 2.5 million copies.

And even if the band and their manager were clueless about how much the public was anticipating Roth rejoining the band prior to the VMAs, the response the band got at the VMAs should have been a wake-up call.

Frankly, once the band decided to record the two tracks with Roth, anything short of the band reuniting with Roth for a new album and a tour already poisoned the well for a third singer. This is far more crucial than wondering if Cherone was the right singer or not. He wasn't, but after getting Roth back into the fold temporarily, that course of action doomed the chances of ANY replacement.

[chuckjitsu]

I'd have to imagine a lot of the blame came down to the ineptness of Van Halen's then-manager, (who by coincidence had also been Extreme's manager). If the Van Halens in the summer of 1996 weren't smart enough or clued-in enough to realize the public wanted to see Dave rejoin the fold, Van Halen's manager SHOULD have been. I mean, one doesn't necessarily expect rock stars to be tuned into the details of the business end of the music biz, or public relations: that stuff is exactly why bands HAVE managers.

After the two BOV1 tracks were recorded, clearly the band decided they weren't going to reunite with Dave beyond doing promo videos for the tracks. At that point, you're exactly right: what use is it to have Dave come out onstage with them at the VMAs? A smart manager would have decided that wouldn't be a good idea considering the group were going with a different singer anyway, and would have been strong enough to resist any pressure from MTV to insist that Roth appear.

And you're right that in the end it really didn't matter much anyway that Roth decided not to make any promo videos for the two songs. The tunes got plenty of radio play, and the greatest hits release sold 2.5 million copies.

And even if the band and their manager were clueless about how much the public was anticipating Roth rejoining the band prior to the VMAs, the response the band got at the VMAs should have been a wake-up call.

Frankly, once the band decided to record the two tracks with Roth, anything short of the band reuniting with Roth for a new album and a tour already poisoned the well for a third singer. This is far more crucial than wondering if Cherone was the right singer or not. He wasn't, but after getting Roth back into the fold temporarily, that course of action doomed the chances of ANY replacement.

It was a few months between when Sam left and the VMAs. You'd of thought the VH's were on one Dave's New Guinea trips isolated from the rest of the world during that time period based on their cluelessness about how pumped people were at the thought of dave being back, especially when word got out that they were working on new material, even though it was just a couple of tunes. The internet was in its infancy then, but wouldn't they have gotten some indication of the excitement people were feeling about the thought of dave being back from musician friends, contacts in the industry, local radio, something? It's difficult to believe that they had no concept of the pandora's box they were opening prior to the point that they walked out onstage with dave at the VMAs.

And you're exactly right- after that summer and the VMAs, there's no way anybody other than Roth would've been accepted. Brilliant plan by the brothers. Pump people up about a Dave reunion, pull the rug out on that, hire a guy that the bulk of their fans are either indifferent to or don't like, wait 18 months to put out an album that nobody's excited about, then foist an absolute turd of an album on what's left of your fanbase. Much better career choice than bringing dave back in to the fold, kicking ass, and reclaiming your title as the greatest american rock band ever!

[DavidLeeNatra]

Now you know why KISS avoided playing with the original band at HOF induction like the devil the holy water...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G850F mit Tapatalk

[Terry]

It was a few months between when Sam left and the VMAs. You'd of thought the VH's were on one Dave's New Guinea trips isolated from the rest of the world during that time period based on their cluelessness about how pumped people were at the thought of dave being back, especially when word got out that they were working on new material, even though it was just a couple of tunes. The internet was in its infancy then, but wouldn't they have gotten some indication of the excitement people were feeling about the thought of dave being back from musician friends, contacts in the industry, local radio, something? It's difficult to believe that they had no concept of the pandora's box they were opening prior to the point that they walked out onstage with dave at the VMAs.

And you're exactly right- after that summer and the VMAs, there's no way anybody other than Roth would've been accepted. Brilliant plan by the brothers. Pump people up about a Dave reunion, pull the rug out on that, hire a guy that the bulk of their fans are either indifferent to or don't like, wait 18 months to put out an album that nobody's excited about, then foist an absolute turd of an album on what's left of your fanbase. Much better career choice than bringing dave back in to the fold, kicking ass, and reclaiming your title as the greatest american rock band ever!

Yeah, it is kinda difficult to think the Van Halens had no clue as to how the general public felt about a Roth reunion prospect in the summer of 1996. I don't necessarily think there was a master plan in place in June of 1996 by the Van Halens to record with Roth, dupe him into thinking he was in the band ("two songs was all I knew for sure" as Roth's Oct 1996 open letter said), dupe the public into thinking Roth was in the band so they would buy the greatest hits record (Ed clearly pointed out this wasn't the case at the VMA press conferences after the presentations, saying that there were no long range plans with Dave beyond making videos for the 2 BOV1 tracks, which was a few weeks before the BOV1 album was released) and then pull the rug out from under everybody.

The net effect of what happened made it seem that way, but it was more likely a series of blunders, having second-thoughts, capitulating to MTV and Warner Brothers and bad management decisions by Van Halens manager. And it wouldn't be surprising that the Van Halens thought the fallout of the 1996 Roth debacle would be short-lived. They would have every reason to think they would be successful with Cherone, because up to that point Van Halen was a very successful band and had no experience with a major career setback.

[Terry]

Now you know why KISS avoided playing with the original band at HOF induction like the devil the holy water...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G850F mit Tapatalk

Well, the thing of that is Stanley and Simmons just have no more use for Peter Criss. They don't like him, and he doesn't like them.

And Peter Criss is no longer able to play a full-length concert. Simply put, he physically cannot do it. So even if the band HAD reunited at the HOF to actually play a couple tunes, it was never a possibility that would have then turned into a full-on reunion: it wouldn't have been 1995 all over again.

Taking those things into account, there would be no upside (financial or otherwise) for Stanley and Simmons to performing a couple of tunes with Criss at the HOF. Because Stanley and Simmons aren't interested in the fans out there who would want to see such a thing. Stanley and Simmons are only interested in the fans out there who are currently willing to pay money to see the band with the current lineup, because those are the fans who pay their bills. I'm not saying any of that critically, either. Were I in their shoes, I probably wouldn't want to bother playing a couple of tunes with Peter Criss and Ace Frehley, either.

Now, as someone who would have liked to have seen the original KISS lineup get up there and play a couple of tunes (in or out of makeup), yeah...it's pretty lame to me that it didn't happen. But I wasn't particularly bummed out by it.

[DavidLeeNatra]

But if they did it would be completely over for the current line up.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G850F mit Tapatalk

[Terry]

The general consensus seems to be that Stanley and Simmons didn't want to play with Frehley and Criss at the HOF because of fears that the public would then demand the original lineup reunite, and it would jeopardize the current lineup's ability to fill venues. I tend to doubt that line of thinking. Criss physically can't play a full set with the band anymore. He hasn't been able to for years, even before the HOF. Even Criss admits this. So there was never any chance of a HOF appearance resulting in the band getting rid of Eric Singer for Peter Criss.

The current version of the band probably doesn't have that much longer to go, anyway. Paul Stanley has been having significant problems with his voice for several years.

[DavidLeeNatra]

Reasonable people know that Chriss/Frehley is no option anymore...but we're talking about FANS here...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G850F mit Tapatalk

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Well, the thing of that is Stanley and Simmons just have no more use for Peter Criss. They don't like him, and he doesn't like them.

And Peter Criss is no longer able to play a full-length concert. Simply put, he physically cannot do it. So even if the band HAD reunited at the HOF to actually play a couple tunes, it was never a possibility that would have then turned into a full-on reunion: it wouldn't have been 1995 all over again.

Taking those things into account, there would be no upside (financial or otherwise) for Stanley and Simmons to performing a couple of tunes with Criss at the HOF. Because Stanley and Simmons aren't interested in the fans out there who would want to see such a thing. Stanley and Simmons are only interested in the fans out there who are currently willing to pay money to see the band with the current lineup, because those are the fans who pay their bills. I'm not saying any of that critically, either. Were I in their shoes, I probably wouldn't want to bother playing a couple of tunes with Peter Criss and Ace Frehley, either.

Now, as someone who would have liked to have seen the original KISS lineup get up there and play a couple of tunes (in or out of makeup), yeah...it's pretty lame to me that it didn't happen. But I wasn't particularly bummed out by it.

I've read all of the KISS autobiographies, I would lean more towards financial reasons why Peter didn't stay....

Pretty sure Gene/Paul told Ace/Peter that if they were to continue that they would have to agree to be 'employees', like Singer/Thayer are now, and thus not getting an equal share of the $$$$.....

I agree, though, in Peter's playing ability.... It was obvious on the reunion tour in '96 he was just going through the motions....