ObamaCare at Supreme Court hearing

[Jagermeister]

I am really surprised no one has wanted to talk about this.
Tons of stories on it today.


The man often known as the Supreme Court's swing justice posed tough questions about the scope of the controversial health care overhaul Tuesday, suggesting he might have doubts about its validity.

Justice Anthony Kennedy did not tip his hand as to how he might ultimately vote in the case -- a ruling is not expected until summer.

But on the most important day of hearings for the landmark case, the entirety of the bench was thoroughly engaged for a two-hour debate over the constitutional merits of President Obama's health care law. Based on the tenor of Tuesday's arguments, the justices appear to be closely divided and the case may ultimately come down to the views of Kennedy.

Kennedy, cutting to the heart of the debate over the so-called individual mandate -- which was the focus of Tuesday's hearing -- asked the federal government's attorney to explain what constitutional power the government had to force all Americans to obtain health insurance.

"Can you create commerce to regulate it?" Kennedy asked Solicitor General Don Verrilli. That question addressed a key issue in the case about whether Congress exceeded its regulatory authority under the Commerce Clause.

Later, Kennedy said the law was unique and felt it was "changing the relationship between the individual and the (federal) government." He acknowledged the Court normally gives Congress the benefit of the doubt on laws that it passes but in this instance there was a "heavy burden of justification" necessary for supporters of ObamaCare to prove its legal worth.

What's not clear is if the answers provided by Verrilli satisfied Kennedy's apparent doubts.

The comments and questions from the other justices generally suggested they would fall along familiar ideological divisions.

"The argument here is that this ... may be necessary, but it's not proper because it violates an equally evident principle in the Constitution, which is that the federal government is not supposed to be a government that has all powers," Justice Antonin Scalia, considered to be on the conservative side of the bench, said at one point. "That it's supposed to be a government of limited powers. And that's what all this questioning has been about. What is left? If the government can do this, what, what else can it not do?"

Obama appointee Justice Elena Kagan, though, appeared to defend the law, seemingly echoing Verrilli's point by asking, "in this context, the subsidizers eventually become the subsidized?"

At the start of his arguments, oddly interrupted by a scratchy throat, Verrilli plainly stated that "the Affordable Care Act addresses a fundamental and enduring problem in the health care system and economy."



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz1qLSOJeeD

[Jagermeister]

Great argument.

Opponents of the individual mandate provision of President Obama's health care law contend that if the government can force you to buy health insurance, its powers of compulsion are virtually unlimited. Chief Justice John Roberts wonders what else Washington can force citizens to buy in this exchange:

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, the same, it seems to me, would be true say for the market in emergency services: police, fire, ambulance, roadside assistance, whatever. You don't know when you're going to need it; you're not sure that you will. But the same is true for health care. You don't know if you're going to need a heart transplant or if you ever will. So there is a market there. To -- in some extent, we all participate in it. So can the government require you to buy a cell phone because that would facilitate responding when you need emergency services? You can just dial 911 no matter where you are?

GENERAL VERRILLI: No, Mr. Chief Justice. think that's different. It's -- We -- I don't think we think of that as a market. This is a market. This is market regulation. And in addition, you have a situation in this market not only where people enter involuntarily as to when they enter and won't be able to control what they need when they enter but when they --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: It seems to me that's the same as in my hypothetical. You don't know when you're going to need police assistance. You can't predict the extent to emergency response that you'll need. But when you do, and the government provides it.

[Jagermeister]

Well looks to me like this baby is going down. And it should.

[jhale667]

Well looks to me like this baby is going down. And it should.

No, it doesn't yet, and no, it shouldn't - unless it's to be replaced with a single-payer plan. Love the logic behind "I'll gladly pay 10x more for something, just don't tell me I HAVE TO buy it!!" when you're gonna pay for it anyway...

[Jagermeister]

It's history dude.

[ELVIS]

Obamacare going DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The federal government has no constitutional buisiness bureaucratizing american sick care or any other services we may or may not have as individual citizens...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Well, I can see the objections to making it mandatory to have health care insurance.

BUT, assuming those people who object don't get insurance themselves, what will they do when they get sick, regardless of the severity?

I mean, having a cold/fever is one thing, run down to the drugstore, no biggie....

But what if they eventually develop Type 2 Diabetes, as that's certainly not unrealistic? Or cancer?

Or other things that require blood work, x-rays, etc. ??

Are those same people going to just skip on down to the Emergency Room, where they know they won't be turned away ??

[Matt White]

Of course they'll strike it down.............

these are the same Corporate Whores who rolled back Campaign Finance Laws to the Gilded age standards......................

Bought & Sold by Corporate America......................

[jhale667]

Matt and VA both make excellent points, and to VA's - we're already paying for it when people like that go to the emergency room, so the "market" argument is unique - the people that don't want to buy insurance are still driving up costs for those of us that do.

And to Matt's - THAT's the thing that's disturbing... you can make the case for why it should be left to stand all day (makes more sense than striking it down on SO many levels), but as I heard it put this morning "We're not talking about 'honorable judges' - these are the same partisan hacks that approved Citizens United...".

[ELVIS]

I don't even have a problem with some sort of basic mandatory insurance...

My argument is that it's not a federal issue, but a state issue...

Power needs to be kept away from the big federal burearcrats...

[ELVIS]

Federal intervention will NOT cause health care costs to go down...

[kwame k]

Considering the bill was written by lobbyist from the insurance companies and the pharma industries I'd like to see this law scrapped!

The sad thing is.....if this does get shot down the odds of us ever getting any true reform is gone

Just look at Max Baucus.....one of the co-authors;

.......Montana Democrat Max Baucus, chair of the Senate Finance Committee and author of the main health bill—received donations not only from health care companies, but from the private lobbyists that represent those firms. Baucus alone received $1.5 million.

Link

The health care industry pumped close to $400 million dollars into getting the bill to be exactly what they wanted........fucking assholes!

[kwame k]

Federal intervention will NOT cause health care costs to go down...

Doing nothing has sure worked out great, too!

[Jagermeister]

Considering the bill was written by lobbyist from the insurance companies and the pharma industries I'd like to see this law scrapped!

The sad thing is.....if this does get shot down the odds of us ever getting any true reform is gone

Just look at Max Baucus.....one of the co-authors;

Link

The health care industry pumped close to $400 million dollars into getting the bill to be exactly what they wanted........fucking assholes!

What? lol this law was written by fucking Democrats!

Jesus H Christ!

[FORD]

Opie Roberts is truly conflicted about this case.

On the one hand, he's a BCE appointee, so he's obligated to rule against a "Democratic" administration whenever possible. He couldn't even get the oath right, for fucks sake.

On the other hand, his record is 100% pro-corporatism. And in this case, ruling against the "Democratic" administration also means ruling against the predatory insurance industry.

I predict it will be a 5-4 decision, but not the usual kind, with the 5 BCE employees on one side and the Clinton/Obama appointees on the other. Opie Roberts himself may be the swing vote here.

Obviously if it were up to me, I'd say pull the plug on the whole damn thing and replace it with single payer.

[kwame k]

What? lol this law was written by fucking Democrats!

Jesus H Christ!

If you believe that the bill wasn't written by pharma and the insurance companies read this Link

[Jagermeister]

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,2058481.story

Reporting from Washington—
The Supreme Court's conservative justices said Wednesday they are prepared to strike down President Obama’s healthcare law entirely.

Picking up where they left off Tuesday, the conservatives said they thought a decision striking down the law's controversial individual mandate to purchase health insurance means the whole statute should fall with it.

The court’s conservatives sounded as though they had determined for themselves that the 2,700-page measure must be declared unconstitutional.

"One way or another, Congress will have to revisit it in toto," said Justice Antonin Scalia.

Agreeing, Justice Anthony Kennedy said it would be an "extreme proposition" to allow the various insurance regulations to stand after the mandate was struck down.

Meanwhile, the court's liberal justices argued for restraint. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the court should do a "salvage job," not undertake a “wrecking operation." But she looked to be out-voted.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. said they shared the view of Scalia and Kennedy that the law should stand or fall in total. Along with Justice Clarence Thomas, they would have a majority to strike down the entire statute as unconstitutional.

An Obama administration lawyer, urging caution, said it would be "extraordinary" for the court to throw out the entire law. About 2.5 million young people under age 26 are on their parents' insurance now because of the new law. If it were struck down entirely, "2.5 million of them would be thrown off the insurance rolls," said Edwin Kneedler.

The administration indicated it was prepared to accept a ruling that some of the insurance reforms should fall if the mandate were struck down. For example, insurers would not be required to sell coverage to people with preexisting conditions. But Kneedler, a deputy solicitor general, said the court should go no further.

But the court's conservatives said the law was passed as a package and must fall as a package.

The justices are scheduled to meet Wednesday afternoon to debate the law's Medicaid expansion

[Jagermeister]

If you believe that the bill wasn't written by pharma and the insurance companies read this Link

kwame if you believe that then open mouth and insert foot. Because it was the Goddamn Democratic controlled congress that rammed it through!

[kwame k]

They worked with the lobbyists so the lobbyists wouldn't oppose the bill........Jesus Christ are you that dense

Read the link I posted......it has all the key players talking about the lobbyists.

[Jagermeister]

They worked with the lobbyists so the lobbyists wouldn't oppose the bill........Jesus Christ are you that dense

Read the link I posted......it has all the key players talking about the lobbyists.

Goddamn. So now you are saying that lobbyist are responsible for that horse shit bill and not the Democrats that rammed it though the house. Come on man. That bill was Obama's crowning achievement.

I read that and let's face it lobbyist are just part of the deal in Washington.

[kwame k]

Where in the fuck did I say the Democrats didn't pass the bill and Obama signed it into law?

Obama tried to get the pharma and insurance companies on board so they wouldn't spend 100's of millions of dollars to crush the bill.

So in essence, the bill was passed on with their input.

[Jagermeister]

I can't do this anymore. I need a break.

[Kristy]

Doing nothing has sure worked out great, too!

Speaking as someone who has been in debt due to lack of health insurance, I don't think Obamacare is the answer. For one, health care in this country especially in hospitals operate like a business and there is already enough red tape on how they can and cannot go about treating somebody. I find it odd that Obama speaks on and on about "free enterprise" and how he is for the little man and small business and then everything he can to destroy such principles. My roommate works in a hospital trying to finish up her candidacy in some bullshit patient care social work whatever it is and can tell you from what she's seen, hospitals are not these evil institutions that Obama would have you believe; the one she works at are genuinely concerned about the quality of care patients receive and money is not the motivating factor.

Most hopsitals have made great strides to keep patient cost down depsite what the insurance companies tell them such as turning off a light in a hallway after a certain hour. What gets me is that Obama would have you believe hospitals are greedy, but when you factor in operating cost, hopital theft by patients, their own insurance, and even to pay for E.R. security it adds up pretty fucking quick. I said this once about Obama and I'll say it again: the guy is pussy. He will attack hospital administration but will cower to insurance companies. Even though I voted for the guy over the past two years of his Administration the guy has left me more than disillusioned, not to say the Rethuglicans can do any better. Health care reform starts at the top: insurance companies and their corporate influence. Until Obama adresses that issue this is all a big waste of time, money and energy.

[Nitro Express]

The money is not in providing the healthcare. The money is in selling the insurance and the drugs. Obamacare is nothing but a scam. It was written by certain connected insurance companies and drug companies. It also eliminates any privacy and the government becomes the decision maker instead of the doctor, the patient, and family. Obamacare is the Patriot Act of healthcare. It all sounds good but the actual results are more expense and a loss of freedom. Do you really want the same people who brought us constant wars and the TSA to be in charge of your healthcare?

[Nitro Express]

No, it doesn't yet, and no, it shouldn't - unless it's to be replaced with a single-payer plan. Love the logic behind "I'll gladly pay 10x more for something, just don't tell me I HAVE TO buy it!!" when you're gonna pay for it anyway...

No we need to bail the banks out so they can continue to screw us and then bail them out again. We probably could run a government single payer health program on a fraction of what we waste on the banker bailouts and defense. Where I'm skeptical is can our hopelessly corrupt government manage such a system? I doubt it.

The real issue here is management. Your system is only as good as those who manage it. Like I said, we have a real leadership crises in this country in everything. Healthcare can be fixed, the financial system can be fixed. The problem is we don't seem to have the people or institutions capable of overseeing it. We just have a den of thieves. We probably could run a really good health care system surprisingly cheap if we had the right leadership and intelligence managing it. Leadership is a bigger problem than money is.

[kwame k]

Speaking as someone who has been in debt due to lack of health insurance, I don't think Obamacare is the answer. For one, health care in this country especially in hospitals operate like a business and there is already enough red tape on how they can and cannot go about treating somebody. I find it odd that Obama speaks on and on about "free enterprise" and how he is for the little man and small business and then everything he can to destroy such principles. My roommate works in a hospital trying to finish up her candidacy in some bullshit patient care social work whatever it is and can tell you from what she's seen, hospitals are not these evil institutions that Obama would have you believe; the one she works at are genuinely concerned about the quality of care patients receive and money is not the motivating factor.

Most hopsitals have made great strides to keep patient cost down depsite what the insurance companies tell them such as turning off a light in a hallway after a certain hour. What gets me is that Obama would have you believe hospitals are greedy, but when you factor in operating cost, hopital theft by patients, their own insurance, and even to pay for E.R. security it adds up pretty fucking quick. I said this once about Obama and I'll say it again: the guy is pussy. He will attack hospital administration but will cower to insurance companies. Even though I voted for the guy over the past two years of his Administration the guy has left me more than disillusioned, not to say the Rethuglicans can do any better. Health care reform starts at the top: insurance companies and their corporate influence. Until Obama adresses that issue this is all a big waste of time, money and energy.

I hate the health care bill and I'm done with Obama!

He basically allowed the industry he was trying to reform, to write the reform

You nailed the biggest problem in health care costs.....the insurance companies. Add in the pharma companies and that is where reform has to start. Hospitals are not the issue, usually, other than certain ones and their criminal billing practices, that bilk millions of dollars yearly for no services rendered.

For the most part it's affording the insurance that's the issue and affordable drugs, too!

[Kristy]

It all sounds good but the actual results are more expense and a loss of freedom. Do you really want the same people who brought us constant wars and the TSA to be in charge of your healthcare?

Unfortunately, that is where it is headed. This whole ideal that healthcare is a "right" simply because you are a U.S. citizen is ridiculous. None of us really has a right to anything in this country except from what has already been stated within the Bill Of Rights itself. It's like me walking into a hardware store and having a right to rope (for um, my bondage experiments) all because I live here. Obama, for whatever reason, cannot grasp the concept of payment for service economics. Granted, there lies greed, corruption and deceit within our health care system but having thugs run the show instructing you on what you can and cannot have when it comes to your health is beyond Orwellian to me.

[Switch84]

The money is not in providing the healthcare. The money is in selling the insurance and the drugs. Obamacare is nothing but a scam. It was written by certain connected insurance companies and drug companies. It also eliminates any privacy and the government becomes the decision maker instead of the doctor, the patient, and family. Obamacare is the Patriot Act of healthcare. It all sounds good but the actual results are more expense and a loss of freedom. Do you really want the same people who brought us constant wars and the TSA to be in charge of your healthcare?

You hit the nail on the head with that post, Nitro! I'm not comfortable with the idea of government "healthcare". It smacks too much of "1984" and I'm not talking about the Van Halen album, baby...

Can't trust it!

[Kristy]

I hate the health care bill and I'm done with Obama!

I am too but the thought of Mitt and his unquestionable eagerness to get on his knees all primed and powered to suck on the tip of corporate cock scares me more. Really, nobody wins in this upcoming election.

[Jagermeister]

I am too but the thought of Mitt and his unquestionable eagerness to get on his knees all primed and powered to suck on the tip of corporate cock scares me more. Really, nobody wins in this upcoming election.

That's not true. The only way we lose is if Obama gets reelected. He had his chance and he has failed miserably. I can say that because I voted for him.

[Kristy]

Riiiight, this corporate bought-and-sold monkey has "win" for the common man written all over him, just like Obama did.

[Nitro Express]

Once the citizens figure out they can get something from the public treasury it's game over. I once talked with a former state governor and he said the most asked question he got is "what are you going to give me?" He said he felt like saying "I'm not giving you anything but I'm going to get the hell out of your way so you can pursue it." Yeah there is the time and place for government to step in if the private sector is endangering the public health or if abusive monopolies form. The thing is, the government now enables the abusive monopolies. That is exactly what Obamacare is. People will pay more money than ever on less care and the government will dictate to you what you can do with your own body.

It cracks me up the same people who bitch that the government has no right to tell a woman what to do with her body support Obamacare.

I think it's swung far enough. People have had enough. I think we are going to kick George Orwell off a cliff. It will be done at the city level, the county level, the state level. People will just say fuck you! and rebel. Then the big bad wolves in the federal government will have to decide how to counter that. Sure the scared fucks pretty much gave themselves the excuse to use the military to handle dissenters but that just pisses the people off more and then what troops are they going to exactly use? The troops hate the fucks currently in power. So I think this summer we are off to the races and the pendulum starts to swing the other way. Things will start to go local again. People are just tired of the big multinational corporations and their bought off government cronies. People are tired of fighting their wars for profit and taking it up the ass from them. People are tired of the politicians running up debt and then being stuck with the bill.

So we will be in a few years of flux here. The system is broke and it's currently ran by a bunch of gangsters and we have to say enough is enough. They will make threats and act like assholes but their bark probably is bigger than their bite because nobody likes them and nobody wants to serve them except for a few asshole mercenaries.

[Jagermeister]

Riiiight, this corporate bought-and-sold monkey has "win" for the common man written all over him, just like Obama did.

I understand your concern. But you have to realize 4 more years of Obama will be the downfall of this country. Mitt is a successful business man. Obama isn't. Hell he's not even a successful politician.

I'm telling you if he Mitt wins the nomination, which I think he will, then the election then we take back the Senate, which we will, it's game on. Then we can make some fucking changes and get some shit done.

[kwame k]

I am too but the thought of Mitt and his unquestionable eagerness to get on his knees all primed and powered to suck on the tip of corporate cock scares me more. Really, nobody wins in this upcoming election.

Yep, the only way Obama will get my vote is if Mitt does something stupid like pick Frothy as his running mate.......other than that, I guess we'll see what 3rd party losers come out of the woodwork

[Jagermeister]

Yep, the only way Obama will get my vote is if Mitt does something stupid like pick Frothy as his running mate.......other than that, I guess we'll see what 3rd party losers come out of the woodwork

lol!!!

It's going to be ok.

[Nitro Express]

It's time people wake up and see the whole presidential race thing is rigged. We have gone years thinking oh this next president will fix it or this next one will. You get the same CFR people in the cabinets no matter who wins. Obama probably behind the scenes is good friends with the Bush family. The game is rigged and has been for a long time. So what we do is go back to the Republic. The system is set up if the Federal Government goes nuts and becomes a dictatorship which it really has since you can't vote the current corporate power structure out of office the power has to go back to the states. We may have a constitutional convention in the near future. The checks and balances are no longer working nor is the electoral process. It has become taken over by inter twined multinational corporations and the government is working hand in hand with them to take all commerce over. It's fascism. This is not a functioning constitutional republic at the federal level anymore. It's has morphed into a corporate democracy (the wolves vote on what sheep they are going to eat) that is committing treason against the constitution that protects the individual from the wolves.

[kwame k]

I'm telling you if he Mitt wins the nomination, which I think he will, then the election then we take back the Senate, which we will, it's game on. Then we can make some fucking changes and get some shit done.

"The Senate Republicans of the 111th Congress again broke the record for the number of filibusters in a session, passing 100 cloture votes in the first eleven months."

Boy, can't wait to see what they do when the President is a Repuke

[kwame k]

lol!!!

It's going to be ok.

I know.....even when Obama gets reelected we'll still survive

[Jagermeister]

"The Senate Republicans of the 111th Congress again broke the record for the number of filibusters in a session, passing 100 cloture votes in the first eleven months."

Boy, can't wait to see what they do when the President is a Repuke

Which is worse?

111th Congress Added More Debt Than First 100 Congresses Combined: $10,429 Per Person in U.S.

[Jagermeister]

I know.....even when Obama gets reelected we'll still survive

I'm not sure about that.