Ford & Elvis

[Susie Q]

Ok, what I wanna know is where would I be in this whole political hooplah. A right winger, left winger, democrat, liberal, republican, etc.

Explain what each party believes in so I can get an idea if I choose to vote, what party I need to be in. I feel myself getting possibly political and wanting to vote this year. I need to know who is smoking what pole, what party to avoid, and who's bandwagon to jump on.

I am being totally serious, not trying to get people going or nothing. I totally trust and respect what both you men say, and what your ways of thinking are in the political arena.

Thanks,
Susie

[lms2]

hmmmmm, sounds like you are opening a can of worms to me! Sounds like fun. I will be watching this thread.

[Susie Q]

Originally posted by lms2
hmmmmm, sounds like you are opening a can of worms to me! Sounds like fun. I will be watching this thread.

[ELVIS]

First of all, before FORD clutters your brain with bullshit, check this out...



Left Wing and Right Wing


by Fred E. Foldvary


Nowadays the terms "right wing" and "left wing" have become blurred, but they still have some meaning. In the United States, right-wing ideas and movements are associated with traditional values, conservative ideologies, support for a strong military, resistance to legal equality or protection for disfavored minorities, censorship of expressions of sexuality and nudity, nationalism, disfavor of too much immigration, and much reverence and support for symbols of the state, such as the flag.
Left-wing ideas and movements had once been associated with a tolerance for diverse religions and races, opposition to censorship, basing morality on reason rather than tradition, favoring equality before the law, "liberal" ideologies centered on human beings whatever their nationality, a disdain for military assertiveness, and opposition to privilege. In today's era of "political correctness," the ideology of the "left" is no longer so "liberal," as some left-wing principles have become inflexible dogmas. Some "progressives" favor the censorship and suppression of expressions and ideas that cross their zero-tolerance line. For example, teaching too much Shakespeare is not tolerated because it is European and while-male oriented.

The word "liberal" has become confusing, since "liberalization" means increasing economic freedom, whereas other times a "liberal" policy in the US means favoring a greater role for government and less economic freedom for individuals. In Europe, "liberal" still means favoring liberty, whereas in the US, liberals tend to favor stronger government and less individual liberty. How did these words get so confused?

Originally, back in the 1700s, the terms "right" and "left" as applied to politics had a clear meaning. The "right" wing was based on tradition and upheld both traditional moral values and traditional institutions and power relationships. Historically, in Europe and America, power was based on the institutions of church and state, the Caucasian (white) race, the male sex, and those owning property, especially land.

The "left" arose in opposition to right-wing domination. Left-wing ideology was centered on reason, and the liberal philosophers concluded that there was in nature no reason for master/slave relationships, but rather that human beings have equal moral worth and should have equal rights. Moreover, no particular religion was based solely on reason, hence all religious practices should be equal before the law. Tradition could be observed voluntarily as custom, but should not enforced by law. These were the original "liberal" ideas, since they favored liberty rather than authoritarian rule by church and state and the landed aristocracy.

Historically, during the 1800s the liberals in European parliaments sat on the left side of the president's chair, a habit that began in 1789 in the French Estates General, where the nobility sat on the King's right side. Thus the name "left wing."

If liberals and the left began as favoring liberty and opposed to privilege, how did they end up supporting big government and new privileges? This confusion originated in large part with the socialists of the early 1800s who failed to distinguish between treating symptoms and treating causes.

The main culprit was Jean Charles Leonard Simonde (1773-1842), known also as Sismondi. Seeing the poverty and unemployment of his time, he blamed the market economy, and proposed a government intervention and a welfare state as a remedy. Henry George would much later point out that the problem was not the market but the land tenure system based on privilege, and the tax system that penalized labor rather than sharing the rents in accord with the equality espoused by liberalism.

It was Sismondi who came up with the concepts of class struggle, the proletariat who owned nothing but their labor, and the surplus product that went to the capitalists. Karl Marx later adopted these ideas, which are now considered to be "Marxist." Sismondi split the liberals into two camps. One would continue to favor free markets and civil liberties, and the other, in their quest for equality and sympathy for workers as underdogs, went the route of socialism or the welfare state.

In Europe, it was clearer who was the ruling class, since the aristocracy, big industrialists, and landowners continued to wield power and favor right-wing policies. But the United States had no historic aristocracy, and many classically liberal ideas became encapsuled in the US Constitution, such as democracy and free speech and the market. These liberal ideas became part of American ideology and became traditional, hence also became "conservative."

So in America the "conservative" Right is split into classical liberals who favor free markets and minimal government, and the traditional authoritarians who favor enforcing traditional values and nationalist policies such as a big military and banning the burning of the US flag. The "liberal" Left is now Sismondian, favoring intervention and the welfare state, hence not truly liberal in the classical sense of favoring individual freedom.

Classical liberals in the United States thus came to call themselves "libertarians," to distinguish themselves from the Sismondian "liberals". Libertarians favor both free markets and civil liberties, basing their views on reason rather than tradition and authority. Libertarians disdain nationalism and privilege.

But most libertarians, not having read the works of Henry George, have fallen into traditional policies regarding land, favoring the allodial policy of the title holder keeping the rent, a privilege violating equality with respect to the resources of nature.

The purest classical liberals are therefore the geoists, who favor individual liberty both in economics as well as in personal life, and who recognize the equal right to the benefits of land, as manifested in the economic rent of land. This policy of "equal rights for all, privileges for none" is the true left-wing ideology, in the original sense and meaning.

But since today, the terms "liberal" and "left wing" have become blurred and co-opted by the Sismondians, both libertarians and geoists say they are neither left nor right, nor in between, but off the left-right spectrum altogether. Nevertheless, it is important to know the origins of the left/right distinctions and understand which view is "left" once the historical clutter has been cleared away.

[lms2]

Good read Elvis. I found it very interesting.

Too bad it neglects to mention the influence of the special interest groups that pad the pockets and clouds the judgment of so many of our leaders. Nor does it address the way our presidential canidates flip flop, back track, and flat out lie about how they feel on all major issues in an attempt to sway the popular vote. Oh yea, and the vote itself. I think Susie also needs to read about electorial votes to help her better understand how her vote counts, and how her states vote counts. It really helps one take into perspective why canidates campaign as they do, and whose "interests" they are looking out for.

We could also talk about how things have changed since public officials became actors, saying and doing what the pr people write for them and tell them to do. It helps one to understand how important of a role your supporting officials play. In addition, we could look at how the times have changed to cause the changes in "right wing" "left wing" and "liberal" views. Many ideas about minorities changed, when there became so many minorities... same for military, social and economic policies...

Oh never mind. I think I will just leave it to you and Ford.

Great post. And you beat Ford to the punch. I think that puts you ten points in the lead.

[ELVIS]

Nor does it address the way our presidential canidates flip flop, back track, and flat out lie about how they feel on all major issues in an attempt to sway the popular vote.

Show me where President Bush has Back tracked, or lied on any issue...

[Ally_Kat]

United States Democratic Party
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Democratic Party is one of the two major United States political parties. The party is currently the minority in both the Senate and the House. The current President is also not a Democrat.

Its origins lie in the original Republican Party founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1793 (today, this party is usually referred to as the "Democratic-Republican Party" for the sake of convenience; but such usage is anachronistic). After the disintegration of the Federalist party, the Republicans were the only major party in American politics. The presidency of Andrew Jackson, however, destroyed the unity of the party, with the Jacksonians forming the Democratic-Republican faction, opposed by the National Republicans, led by John Quincy Adams. The Jacksonian "Democratic-Republicans" soon became known as simply "Democrats." From 1833 to 1856, the Democratic party was opposed chiefly by the Whig Party. From 1856 onward its main opposition has come from the modern Republican Party.

In contemporary times, its primary political principles include multilateralism, secularism, pro-choice and gay rights, multi-culturalism, environmentalism, and a commitment to tempering capitalism with programs of social welfare. The political platform of the Democratic Party has been generally described as left-wing. The New Democrat movement of the 1980s and 1990s, however, have somewhat eroded the party's previously more leftist policies in favor of a more centrist approach. This is a primary complaint of many members of the Green Party, leading some Greens, such as Peter Camejo, to declare, "The Democratic Party is where progressive politics go to die."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic_Party

[ELVIS]

We could also talk about how things have changed since public officials became actors, saying and doing what the pr people write for them and tell them to do.

Again, show me an example of George W. Bush doing this...

[Ally_Kat]

United States Republican Party
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Republican Party (often GOP for Grand Old Party) is one of the two major political parties in the United States. The current President of the United States, George W. Bush, is a member of the party, and it has majorities in the Senate and the House. The GOP is a conservative, right-wing party, and it has many political factions.

The party was organized in Ripon, Wisconsin on February 28, 1854, as a party against the expansion of slavery. It is not to be confused with the Democratic-Republican party of Thomas Jefferson or the National Republican Party of Henry Clay. The first convention of the U.S. Republican Party was held on July 6, 1854, in Jackson, Michigan. Many of its initial policies were inspired by the defunct Whig Party. Since its inception, its chief opponent has been the Democratic Party.

Today its primary political principles include deregulated free-market capitalism, along with nationalism, religiosity and social conservatism, and militarism. Refer below (Factions of the Republican Party) for a detailed explication of its ideological stripes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Republican_Party

[King VH]

Elvis, u have proven to me once again that u are the man!!!

[King VH]

Susie Q, i believe my man Elvis has given you some great reasons to vote Bush this year.

[Susie Q]

Well....I still don't know where I belong. Cause this is what I think.

I say as far as war....I don't care what the hell is going on outside of my own country. If Iran/Iraq or whatever is having a religious war about whatever....why should I care?

To go to war if someone threatens the US's soil....I am for it. Build the defense and go with it.

I am not for gay marriage, yet will let my gay friends do their thing. The union between two people is a sacred emotion that is meant to function is a normal compacity. See my take in that abortion/gay marriage thread, and you will have my thoughts on that.

I don't believe politicians should dictate if I want to wear a seatbelt, smoke in a restaurant (by the way...I don't smoke).

I do believe in the eye for an eye theory. If someone murders another, then that person should be himself murdered. If that person rapes, then that person needs to be castrated. etc...

I think prisions should be not funded by our tax dollars. It should be where they grow their own food, spin their own wool for clothing, etc. Have a water tank in there for them to get their own water from, etc. Let them live off the land so to speak. Not have it like a damn holiday inn where they can have TV, libraries, etc... The people they harmed don't enjoy those things, neither should they.

Tax dollars should be spent on helping the elderly that put their time in already. Get them the necessary medicines for free, free health care, etc. Help our own homeless to get on their feet and become productive once again.

So....where do I sit as a political party?

[King VH]

REPUBLICAN MY GIRL

[Susie Q]

Originally posted by King VH
REPUBLICAN MY GIRL

Ah...ok. Well, I watched a bit of that Arnold speech, and he was talking how proud he was and what made him switch to the certain political power and he said it was Richard Nixon. Wasn't he involved with that whole watergate mess? That wouldn't have been something I would have brought up, ya know?

I mean, I am sure there are skeletons in every closet. That all political powers have some sort of mistakes they made. No one is perfect. But those that want what I said above....and not bullshit and mean it....then I will go with that vote.

[King VH]

Look, the fact of the matter is, and obviously this will vary somewhat, most republican are: Against gay marriage and believe that it is for a Man and a Woman, since marriage is a Christian and Jewish tradition. Republican are Pro-Life, and yes i read your article about how you are pro choice.(i'll get back to this) Republicans are for low taxes, which ultimately makes the market go up, and also conservatives are religious. If u fit pretty much what i said, then you are a republican and I suggest voting for Bush this year.