The Army Boxing Thread

[binnie]

It was a good fight wasn't it? Proof that Cotto still has the warrior spirit despite all of those tough fights....

[jhale667]

It was a good fight wasn't it? Proof that Cotto still has the warrior spirit despite all of those tough fights....

I enjoyed it, but then I love watching Mayorga get his ass beat... he's a loudmouth, not a fan.

[sonrisa salvaje]

Damn. Guerrero vs. Maidana is cancelled due to the Ghost hurting his shoulder. What is worse.....it might be a torn rotator cuff that would put him out until next year. This sucketh much.

[binnie]

Chagaev-Povetkin tomorrow.

I find it hard to care, and harder to pick.

Chagaev was actually a very good heavyweight, with some real skills. His persistent injuries/illnesses, however, robbed his career of momentum and when he finally got Wlad all of the inactivity made him a shell of his former self.

Povetkin is in danger of becoming a never was - man his career has developed tentatively. That being said, he's younger and less damamged, so I expect he'll eek out a UD unless Chagaev has somehow found a second career wind.

[sonrisa salvaje]

Chagaev-Povetkin tomorrow.

I find it hard to care, and harder to pick.

Chagaev was actually a very good heavyweight, with some real skills. His persistent injuries/illnesses, however, robbed his career of momentum and when he finally got Wlad all of the inactivity made him a shell of his former self.

Povetkin is in danger of becoming a never was - man his career has developed tentatively. That being said, he's younger and less damamged, so I expect he'll eek out a UD unless Chagaev has somehow found a second career wind.

Good call B.
I didn't get to see the fight. If anyone can confirm it is worth watching i'll check it out.

[binnie]

It's worth watching - not a thriller, but well worth your time.

[binnie]

Ok, let's do some fantasy match-ups. Just for shits and giggles.

How would the following fights play out (assuming each fighter was in their prime)?

Rocky Marciano vs Joe Frazier

Muhammed Ali vs Lennox Lewis

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston

Vitali Klitschko vs Larry Holmes

Joe Louis vs Mike Tyson

I'm starting with the heavies - we'll see how it goes and maybe we'll do some lighter weights............

[binnie]

Did anyone see the first episode of Mayweather-Ortiz 24/7?

There was a huge fighter between Mayweather Sn and Mayweather Jn about 'respect'. Looked to have been faked for the cameras to me...........

[TFM_Dale]

Rocky Marciano vs Joe Frazier - Going Frazier, all I really know about Marciano is what I have read and some old footage that always gets played when they talk about Marciano. Frazier was a beast.

Muhammed Ali vs Lennox Lewis - Really? Ali without breaking a sweat.

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston - Tough one, I'll go Liston but I do have alot of respect for Holyfield even though he held on for WAY to long.

Vitali Klitschko vs Larry Holmes - Holmes, 1st round, in my opinion Bitchko is the worst fighter on this list.

Joe Louis vs Mike Tyson - I'll probably catch flack for this but give me Tyson. Before all the money and fame went to his head he was a fucking monster. Louis would have given him fits but Mike would have kept coming. It is a shame what happened to Tyson's career and it is all his own fault.

[DlocRoth]

Rocky Marciano vs Joe Frazier - Going Frazier, all I really know about Marciano is what I have read and some old footage that always gets played when they talk about Marciano. Frazier was a beast.

Muhammed Ali vs Lennox Lewis - Really? Ali without breaking a sweat.

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston - Tough one, I'll go Liston but I do have alot of respect for Holyfield even though he held on for WAY to long.

Vitali Klitschko vs Larry Holmes - Holmes, 1st round, in my opinion Bitchko is the worst fighter on this list.

Joe Louis vs Mike Tyson - I'll probably catch flack for this but give me Tyson. Before all the money and fame went to his head he was a fucking monster. Louis would have given him fits but Mike would have kept coming. It is a shame what happened to Tyson's career and it is all his own fault.

All toss ups except like Dale said....

Larry would KILL Weetali. All Dave. ALL nite.

[binnie]

Rocky Marciano vs Joe Frazier - Going Frazier, all I really know about Marciano is what I have read and some old footage that always gets played when they talk about Marciano. Frazier was a beast.

Muhammed Ali vs Lennox Lewis - Really? Ali without breaking a sweat.

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston - Tough one, I'll go Liston but I do have alot of respect for Holyfield even though he held on for WAY to long.

Vitali Klitschko vs Larry Holmes - Holmes, 1st round, in my opinion Bitchko is the worst fighter on this list.

Joe Louis vs Mike Tyson - I'll probably catch flack for this but give me Tyson. Before all the money and fame went to his head he was a fucking monster. Louis would have given him fits but Mike would have kept coming. It is a shame what happened to Tyson's career and it is all his own fault.

Here's my take.

Frazier-Marciano.

This is the best fight on the list, and a real 50/50 affair. Both are around the same size, both can bang, and both never took a step backwards. The result is a war. The thing that people tend to forget about Marciano was that he was deceptively hard to hit cleanly - that gives him a bit of an edge here. His right hand was absolutely lethal. Frazier was relentless and fearless, and would have kept coming all night. I'd say that Marciano was just too small to comptete in the heavyweight division after about 1980, but Frazier was a small heavy too so I think it'd be evenly matched. Rocky might end up touching the floor, but he eventually stops Frazier late on through a TKO - Foreman aside, Frazier has never been hit so hard in his life.

Ali - Lewis

This is a difficult one to call. Lewis is unlikely anyone Ali ever fought. Bigger (by quite a margin), and incredibly mobile for a giant. Great defense, excellent jab (second only to Holmes) and real power. The problem with him was that he was often dull to watch: he was more than happy to go 12 rounds rather than give the crowd some fireworks (but, if you want to see some, watch the Golota and Ruddock fights). We'd all be gunning for Ali here - the flashy showman, the guy with the fast hands and fast feet. With that speed, he certainly have success against Lewis, but I don't think he's have the power to KO him. That being said, Lewis is considered by many boxing experts to be the worst ATG match up for Ali because he combines perfect boxing fundamentals with a significant size advantage. Much as it breaks my heart to admit it, I see Lewis cutting the ring off and using his significant height and reach advantage to keep Ali on the end of his jab all night along his way to a relatively dull UD.

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston

Everyone loves the 'Real Deal'. He is one of the toughest SOB on all time, and he has really showed that toughness in countless fights over the years. Combined with a great set of skills (especially for a heavy) and significant work rate and speed, he's be an handful for any ATG. The problem for Holyfield, however, was that when he met other ATG in their prime (Tyson was past it), he came up short - Bowe (who might not really be an ATG) and Lewis, handled him fairly easily. Against Liston, he's not battling against a taller man. He is, however, battling against a guy with a reach advantage and a ram-rod jab, things which Tyson didn't have. That jab keeps Holyfield off balance most of the night, and is backed up by an absolutely lethal right hand. Holyfield's ring IQ and heart keep him in it during the first six rounds, but he'd getting clubbed all over the ring. The result is a TKO around round 9-10.

Holmes vs - Vitali Klitschko.

The Klitschko brothers are an odd phenomenon: the highest KO ratios in heavyweight boxing ever, matched with the reputation for being the most boring! Part of the explanation for that 'boredom' is undoubtedly down to the lack of opposition they've had to face over the years (nothing they can do about that). It is clear that Wlad - for all of his ungodly punching power - is vulnerable on the chin. Vitali, by contrast, is iron jawed. He took some of Lewis's best shots and didn't blink (that fight heating up into a classic until it got stopped on cuts). With huge power, and a significant height and reach advantage over all ATG fighters (he's 6'7" and Foreman was 6'3") he is a hard night's work for any of them - you have to be able to get close to do damage. Much as we'd like to think Ali would dance round him, Foreman would pummel him, and Tyson would KO him in the first round, the results would be very different I think, as none of those guys had ever faced a guy that big and that strong. The exception is Holmes, I think. That guy knew how to win, and to overcome adversity. He also had the best jab in heavyweight history. Here, he uses that jab and right hand to 1-2 Klitscko all night en route to a UD. Klitscko has his moments, and Holmes might have to get up off the canvas after one of Vitali's combinations. But, unlike most of the guys the Klits face, Holmes believes he can win from round 1 to round 12. Holmes is the third best heavyweight ever, IMO.

Joe Louis - Mike Tyson

Louis's handspeed and significant punching power makes sure that Tyson takes some shots here. But he's never been in with a guy as heavy as Mike, as strong, or as fast and accurate. I see Louis's bravery taking him to round 5, when he eventually succombs to Tyson's power. Pre Sonny Liston, Louis beats pretty much any man ever to fight at heavyweight (with the possible exception of Jack Johnson). In the era after that, however, he starts to give away 20 + lbs and more, and is facing guys who hit much harder than anything he's faced before.

[binnie]

I'm enjoying this. Here's some more fantasy match-ups at heavy for you to think about (again, all are in their primes):

Joe Louis vs Muhammed Ali

Riddick Bowe vs George Foreman

Ken Norton vs Joe Frazier

Earnie Shavers vs Wladimir Klitschko

Jack Dempsey vs Max Baer

[binnie]

Looks like Cotto-Margarritto II will be made at a catch-weight somewhere between 150-154.

Expect a war - Cotto has the skills to beat him, I just hope he doesn't fight stupid like he did last time.

[jhale667]

Don't think that was faked...possibly embellished for, but not fake.

Did anyone see the first episode of Mayweather-Ortiz 24/7?

There was a huge fighter between Mayweather Sn and Mayweather Jn about 'respect'. Looked to have been faked for the cameras to me...........

Ya think? I disagree...from what I've read and heard, their relationship is strained at best - there's still genuine animosity between them from Jr's teen years left over. The rest of his family and the entourage looked horrified, like "did that just happen with HBO here?"...they looked embarrassed. Mostly by Jr...that was basically an overblown semantic debate: Of course Sr. is his original trainer, but Roger was his first and only professional trainer. Jr. needs to get over it. I think Floyd Jr's actually a little distracted here, which is unusual - so this fight could get interesting. And burning hundred dollar bills doesn't win fans among dudes who nearly starved to death as dirt-poor (orphan) kids.

Did you see De La Hoya's speculation Floyd is "shot" because he's now 34? Excuse me, but was Bernard Hopkins not older than that when he kicked Oscars' ass??

Floyd's chick? I'd hit dat.

I did like the bit, after seeing Ortiz in the first episode (oddly)shouting his own name while working on the speed bag,- and not like in a "what's my name" kind of way, it was more...third person. But as they showed Floyd doing his workout with his, he yelled out "Everybody knows what the fuck my name is!" Doing that kind of thing - Ortiz does seem like he's still trying to convince himself he can do this...not a good sign IMO. Plus, hello - he's got an entourage too, why the fuck weren't they shouting his name for him - they're on the fucking payroll, after all...shouldn't be doing his own pep-talks, dude - you've got people for that now...

Predictions?

[binnie]

Oscar was trying to hype the fight by questioning Mayweather's opposition.

Hatton was a 'little guy' (who'd beat the living shit out of Ortiz); JMM was a little guy (who was P4P no. 2 at the time and is good enough to get Pacquiao at 147 - oh, and who'd also beat the shit out of Ortiz); Oscar was 'done' (yeah, right, keep telling yourself you have beaten Mayweather in your prime Oscar); and on and on......

I guess it's the promoter's job to encourage his charge, but Ortiz is going to face the problem all Floyd's opponents face: how do you get your confidence going when you've been punching air for 3 round? I like Ortiz, and I've no doubt he's working hard. He's young, reasonably fast and reasonably powerful, and deserves his no. 2 WW ranking. But he's never going to be the no.1 guy.

I'm almost certain the Sn-Jr ruckass was faked. Not by HBO, but by the Mayweathers to make everyone think there's drama in the camp.