Toyota: "Oh What a Feeling!" (We're Fucked!)

[Nickdfresh]

Do any of the big 3 make a decent, reliable 4 cylinder engine?

Yes, in fact, find me an unreliable 4-cyl. engine...

Some are a bit crude and/or out-of-date (like the Cobalt's 2.2L Ecotech), but almost anything you buy today is reliable and will last the life of the car with any sort of decent maintenance...

In their new 2012 Focus, Ford is supposedly going to offer a 1.8 or 2.0 liter engine that generates 180 horsepower while getting over 40 miles per gallon...

[kwame k]

For about a year and a half the banks have really tightened up. Yes, it is more difficult to get someone financed, but the good news is, the rates have dropped to the lowest that I have ever seen. People who have subapar or bad credit are, of course, a lot more difficult to get done but where the BIG difference has come is in the advance. Banks don't want to advance as much money so the salespeople are trying to get as much down money as possible. Used cars are where you see this the most because book values have dropped on every car. It is also very difficult to roll money into a loan. Before, when someone was trading and was in an inequitable situation we could roll a few thousand or mre into the new loan. Not anymore. Banks don't like to go over 120% of invoice or book value.

Still, going to a 120% Loan to Value...is fucking insane!

That's the same problem the housing market faced......You guys seem to be in the same boat, overvalued used products in an undervalued market.

Incredibly low interest rates equals people are financing products for more than they are worth because monthly payment is all a buyer's really concerned about and not total cost. Total cost is something you brag/lie about when you're BS'ing with your friends. As interest rates rise you can't borrow as much (income to debt ratio) and what you have financed you can't sell for what you owe, rinse and repeat.

Since our wages in this country continue to decrease or stagnant, so will housing and financed goods, if they don't come in line with what we can afford, the bubble begins again.

There are too many homes sitting vacant, at some point the banks will sell them for whatever they can get for them. Now will financing stay the reckless course and seeing billions of dollars to be made, be tempted to do it all over again?

It still blows my mind that people don't seem to get a very simple fact here. You make this much money, your income to debt ratio is this, you can only borrow this much, period. Not the old....well lets fudge the numbers to get you what you really want. This financing menace has to stop and no one should be able to make a major financed purchase without putting 20% + down. Sorry, champagne taste on a beer budget doesn't cut it. Drink beer and like it.

Really, for this to never happen again, average prices have got to come in line with average wages. When I started Real Estate, rates were at a historic low and look what mess we got into.

The only reason I want financing regulations is that The Banks and We The People are too stupid to save us from ourselves.

[78/84 guy]

that lebaron has plenty of jap shit in it, unless ya got the maserati tc model

My 77 Monte Carlo didn't that I sold with 202000 on it to a friend for 100 large didn't. He put another couple thousand on it. Or my 79 dodge Magnum with 165000 on it still in my garage next to a 69 Charger with 150000 miles on it. Or the 87 dodge Ram that I sold with 195000 on it to a guy at work 6 years ago. He still drives it a couple times a week when it snows. The Lebaron has jap shit on it but at least it was built in America !! By the way my 2003 Dakota I bought new will roll 100000 probably the next time I drive it this weekend !! If it didn't when I drove it home from work today. One water pump & a set of back tires and brakes once. The last two are regular wear parts. Go buy a new Ford !! They got it together right now !!

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Toyota apologizes for handling of safety issues - Yahoo! News

"We are confident that no problems exist with the electric throttle control system in our vehicles," Lentz said in prepared testimony to the House Energy and Commerce's investigative subcommittee. Lentz cited "fail-safe mechanisms" in the cars were designed to shut off or reduce engine power "in the event of a system failure."

so even if the pedal is physically stickin' and the driver is mashing brakes, flippin' the e-brake, and shifting into neutral, no failsafes exist? i guess that's possible.


"They misled the American public," Stupak added, "by saying that they and other independent sources had thoroughly analyzed the electronics systems and eliminated electronics as a possible cause of sudden unintended acceleration when, in fact, the only such review was a flawed study conducted by a company retained by Toyota's lawyers."

imagine that

[Sorcerer]

Debate

While a lot of the information I'm about to write is of course up for debate. I would like to note that I've been a mechanic for 10 years and I've worked on just about every make and model available in North America and some models that weren't offered in North America.

This being said I have found that Japanese Vehicles at least pre 2000 tend to be bar none the most reliable, longest lasting cars on North American roads. Of course all makes have good models, but not as consistently as the Japanese tend to have. I also like the older Japanese focus on inline engines which tend to almost always out last V type engines. Mainly because of how a V engine stresses the crank shaft and creates un even heat on the cylinder walls, this of course isn't something one would call an issue, it's just a characteristic of V type engine.

Since 2000 many things have changed in the automotive world and many have stayed the same, the combustion engine in a new vehicle is based around 20 year old technology, no one has really re written the book because burning gasoline isn't an efficient method of transportation to began with!

Now we also had some electric cars in early 2000, 2001, but most were crushed and few people realize, people were driving and loving there Saturn, Toyota, Honda and Ford EV's. Battery technology wasn't an issue, information as usual was suppressed.

The current Toyota issues weren't really a surprise to me as I've watched Japanese vehicles get worse and worse over the last ten year. Some GM stuff has been good other stuff terrible, and some ford stuff good other stuff terrible, and lets not even start on Daimler. Honda cheaped out on there cars in 2001 ditching there well engineered double wishbone suspension for Mac pherson struts, which is the crap that comes on pretty much every other car! Toyota has made less obvious cheap out's but they happened none the less, there cars went from having awesome fit and finished to constently broken interior parts and issues with various other things.

Now to be fair it isn't like the domestics were free from issues in the last ten years. GM Dex cool has been a huge issue on some vehicles, a cooling system that goes over it's 5 year drain interval (depending on motor) it will sludge and let massive amounts of rust form leaving you with an insane repair bill! All other red coolent does not share Dex cools issues! Also GM's issues with mass air flow sensors needed cleaning frequently, sometimes leaving people with a new truck that burns shit loads of fuel, making insane black smoke and in some cases leaving you stranded!

Fords issues can vary greatly from car to car which always leads me to believe it's a build quality issues... Ford has kept some models/motors on a long time which is good but kind of sad! Rangers are basically still the same truck they were 20 years ago with a new body....

Lets talk about GM for a minute and I will end this before it becomes a novel. They're probably one of the worst companies to work for as far as lay offs go. Weather you have a job or not depends on how much money the CEO's need to buy a new yacht every year. (this is typical in big business but seems obvious with GM) GM just got 65 billon in tax payer dollars, because there company was broke, ever seen the GM tower? (being broke was obviously a lie)

Now a quick look at some funny "Domestic Models"

2009 Chevrolet Aveo - a Koren car made with old Daewoo tooling (great job guys!)

2007-08 Torrent - First chinese made and manufactured engine in a domestic car! ( to compete in the market with all the other car companies that don't use chinese engines)

Fusions - Made in mexico (out of a job yet keep buying ford)

I realize Toyota is going right in the shitter as far as new car sales go, but I know from experience that pre 2000 Honda, Toyota, and some Nissans are the best cars in NA

[PETE'S BROTHER]

i concur...

[Sorcerer]

Protectionism

I forgot to add this, it's something I noticed about 8 or 9 years ago when I was working on an old 1986 Toyota Land Cruiser diesel that I had purchased, 400 000 miles still running strong. I was thinking to myself what would I replace this truck with if I wanted a domestic model, hmmm, nothing...

Then I started thinking about japanese cars say, 1990 Acura Integra what would you replace it with? A 1990 4 cylinder mustang? (nah they're all gone) a Cavailer, good luck finding a 1990 that runs. Tempo? (not fun or nice at all) then I though WTF? No wonder the japanese car companies are doing so well, they're in a market all there own!

So I started researching, and protectionism started, slowly yet swiftly all good Japanese cars started being taken off the NA market. Toyota Canada, Honda Canada were born, leaving us without the amazing Jap vehicles we once knew, no more small diesels, not more turbo intercooled AWD celica's. Then of course NSX's and Skylines were virtually non exsistant here. Yet in Australia you can get a few of the good ones, and south america too, even Britain. WTF.

Then I found Ford making car for Australia that were better then any of there north american models.

To me protectionism was the only answer!

The american economy boomed when we nuked everyone and the world was in shambles, but once they caught back up they passed us and they never looked back until now!

[Nickdfresh]

While a lot of the information I'm about to write is of course up for debate. I would like to note that I've been a mechanic for 10 years and I've worked on just about every make and model available in North America and some models that weren't offered in North America.

This being said I have found that Japanese Vehicles at least pre 2000 tend to be bar none the most reliable, longest lasting cars on North American roads. Of course all makes have good models, but not as consistently as the Japanese tend to have. I also like the older Japanese focus on inline engines which tend to almost always out last V type engines. Mainly because of how a V engine stresses the crank shaft and creates un even heat on the cylinder walls, this of course isn't something one would call an issue, it's just a characteristic of V type engine.

Since 2000 many things have changed in the automotive world and many have stayed the same, the combustion engine in a new vehicle is based around 20 year old technology, no one has really re written the book because burning gasoline isn't an efficient method of transportation to began with!

Now we also had some electric cars in early 2000, 2001, but most were crushed and few people realize, people were driving and loving there Saturn, Toyota, Honda and Ford EV's. Battery technology wasn't an issue, information as usual was suppressed.

The current Toyota issues weren't really a surprise to me as I've watched Japanese vehicles get worse and worse over the last ten year. Some GM stuff has been good other stuff terrible, and some ford stuff good other stuff terrible, and lets not even start on Daimler. Honda cheaped out on there cars in 2001 ditching there well engineered double wishbone suspension for Mac pherson struts, which is the crap that comes on pretty much every other car! Toyota has made less obvious cheap out's but they happened none the less, there cars went from having awesome fit and finished to constently broken interior parts and issues with various other things.

Now to be fair it isn't like the domestics were free from issues in the last ten years. GM Dex cool has been a huge issue on some vehicles, a cooling system that goes over it's 5 year drain interval (depending on motor) it will sludge and let massive amounts of rust form leaving you with an insane repair bill! All other red coolent does not share Dex cools issues! Also GM's issues with mass air flow sensors needed cleaning frequently, sometimes leaving people with a new truck that burns shit loads of fuel, making insane black smoke and in some cases leaving you stranded!

Fords issues can vary greatly from car to car which always leads me to believe it's a build quality issues... Ford has kept some models/motors on a long time which is good but kind of sad! Rangers are basically still the same truck they were 20 years ago with a new body....

Lets talk about GM for a minute and I will end this before it becomes a novel. They're probably one of the worst companies to work for as far as lay offs go. Weather you have a job or not depends on how much money the CEO's need to buy a new yacht every year. (this is typical in big business but seems obvious with GM) GM just got 65 billon in tax payer dollars, because there company was broke, ever seen the GM tower? (being broke was obviously a lie)

Now a quick look at some funny "Domestic Models"

2009 Chevrolet Aveo - a Koren car made with old Daewoo tooling (great job guys!)

2007-08 Torrent - First chinese made and manufactured engine in a domestic car! ( to compete in the market with all the other car companies that don't use chinese engines)

Fusions - Made in mexico (out of a job yet keep buying ford)

I realize Toyota is going right in the shitter as far as new car sales go, but I know from experience that pre 2000 Honda, Toyota, and some Nissans are the best cars in NA

I agree in general. But I think there have been cases where both Honda and Toyota dropped the ball--and were essentially given a free pass as far as warranties and "stealth recalls." For instance, the notorious Toyota "slugger engines" running from 1997-2002 (2.4L & 3.0Ls I think) were caused by improper cooling and essentially rushing the engines to market. Honda has also had their fair share of problems with transmissions and the late 1990s/early 2000s Civics and Accords are notorious for shitting the bed. If that had been say Ford or Chevy, you never would have heard the end of it. In fact, Mazdas previous association with Ford, and using a bad Ford Tranny in their otherwise excellent early-90's vintage Mazda 626's basically damaged their reputation at a point they were gaining market share on Toyota and Honda...

As for Fords and GMs being made abroad partially or wholly--yes, it's a shame. But it should be noted that GM also sells a fuck-lot of cars in China as Buicks. And Ford is a world car company with strong associations with quality and value for the price (sometimes, far more so than in this country).

I agree that the Ford Ranger is a bit silly at this point. But in their defense, they've decided to focus on redoing their small cars and are completely redoing the Ford Focus in 2012 with excellent Euro lineage in performance and components. They're also bringing the Fiesta here, redoing their big truck lineup with an excellent new diesel, and wanted to do away with the Ranger/mid-size truck segment all together. But the Ranger's saving grace is that it's cheap and reliable, and there's something to be said about a cheap second small truck that's not a borderline luxury or performance vehicle like the Tacoma is...

[ELVIS]

In their new 2012 Focus, Ford is supposedly going to offer a 1.8 or 2.0 liter engine that generates 180 horsepower while getting over 40 miles per gallon...

Chrysler managed to do that with a 150 hp 2.0 way back in 1995 with the neon...

[Nickdfresh]

Chrysler managed to do that with a 150 hp 2.0 way back in 1995 with the neon...

Yeah, but the newer small cars are safer with multiple airbags, ABS, ESC, etc., and are a bit heavier than they used to be. They engines must meet stricter emissions, and the EPA tests are tougher and have taken the MPG ratings down on every car...

[Sorcerer]

The Toyota issues engines, are almost exclusivly V type engines, the majority with a weird exhaust cross over and a F'in coolent line running down the middle of the block and can only be seen as far as condition with the intake OFF! Also your dates are off toyota had issues with 3.0L since the early 90's

Honda was getting 142 HP out of a 1.8L in 1990 man...

Toyota was making 221hp from the 3S-GTE 1998cc! well before 1995... They did get caught cheating in world rally though which is why toyota performace devision is gone!

lol MPG down on every car eh, anyone realize honda had the Civic VX in 1995 that made 51mpg?

Safer? were still driving around with countless gallons of volatile fuel in a metal/plastic tank, in most cases with an electronic pump submerged in the fuel? Does anything about that sound safe? We've come a long way from the pinto, but the biggest danger is still a bad driver!

The fact the government gave GM 65 billion dollars of PEOPLE AKA TAX PAYER money, is enough to make me never own a vehicle with a GM badge. There V8's were state of the art in the 70's, but it's time to re think some things... I love mid 90's buicks it's like stepping back into the 80's or 70's, lol...

Look around when you're driving your daily driver, do you ever notice the only old cars on the road are foreign, with the exception of the odd tempo... trucks seem to be a different story though, but that's for another time!

After you work on car's all day you start realizing the ones that are easier to work on, you start noticing the miles they've accumulated, and everything about how domestics are the best built goes right out the window...

I would much rather support an american company, but for the most part there vehicles don't excite me at all!

[BITEYOASS]

I can't wait for Toyota's stock to plummet! Because when it reaches rock bottom, than I'm buying up and will make a killing once they solved their problems and the stock rises back up.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

shhhh, don't tell everybody

[PETE'S BROTHER]

But when pressed by Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., on whether he could say with certainty that the fixes now being undertaken would completely eliminate the problems, Lentz hesitated a moment and then replied: "Not totally."

Still, he said chances of unintended accelerations would be "very, very slim" once the recalls were complete. Lentz also said Toyota was putting in new controls so brakes would override the gas pedal on almost all of its new vehicles and a majority of its vehicles already on the road. Toyota recalls won't 'totally' fix sudden surges - Yahoo! News



a: why hadn't this been part of fly-by-wire anyway?

b: it would have an electronic component in the override system

[Sorcerer]

The best part about this entire thing is any cable actuated throttle, can technically stick in the open position if the return spring becomes broken or rusted or if the throttle cable itself becomes rusted. It's probably happened to A LOT of people over the years on various makes and models... It isn't a common thing you see everyday but, I have seen more than a handful...

It's been so discussed on the news and media, it's really become a nightmare for toyota (not that I think they're innocent at all)

But the fact remains many company's have had to do the math on weather a recall is the best option or weather to just pay out lawsuits as they come in. It's been done before on pick ups with exploding gas tanks and also with the good ol ford pinto... Both times the companies decided it was better for people to drive there bombs around rather than issue a recall because it was just more cost effective to the company...

I dunno in the end, I haven't seen an exciting car out of toyota in a while anyway.... Unless you look at Toyota Japan they still get some sweet rides, with real options, ohh an so does OZ and so does south america and most of europe...