U.S. Marine Shoots Wounded Insurgent

[Nickdfresh]

Excellent post ODShow! Compelling story on what is clearly not a black and white issue regardless of perspective!

[John Ashcroft]

So who do you consider "legitimate resistance"?

And do you hope they win?

[Seshmeister]

You can only win if you achieve your goals.

Our goals were

1) To destroy Iraqs WMDs

They didn't have any to destroy

2) To reduce the terrorist threat to the West

The war has galvanized opposition to the US and UK in the region converting many moderates to fundamentalism.

3) To improve the lot of the Iraqi people

10s of thousands of civilians killed and their infrastructure destroyed.
Anarchy or at best a foreign powers puppet running their country.

How can we win?

Cheers!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
So who do you consider "legitimate resistance"?

And do you hope they win?

Me? I don't consider them "freedom fighters" if that's what you mean. Because they are not fighting for freedom!

That's a good question, I wish I had a simple 7 quick answer, because there are serveral different groups with different motivations (these are not your fathers Viet Cong). The main group I would like to completely exterminate are the foriegn fighters and the Al-Zarqawi (al-Qaida wanna be) beheading crew. These people can only be dealt with at the barrel of a gun and have no real business there.

But, inevatibably, we are going to have to negotiate with certain indigious (I mean actual Iraqi) insurgants and come to some negotiated settlement because right now we are in a stalemate that I can't see ending unless the US sends in a significantly greater number of ground troops.

[John Ashcroft]

The indigenous insurgents are former baath party loyalists who personally benefitted by the operation of Saddam's torture chambers. And they happen to be a destructive minority in the country.

Should we have negotiated with active SS troops post WWII?

But at least we agree that foreign insurgents must be dealt with at the barrel of a gun. We've got a start here.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
The indigenous insurgents are former baath party loyalists who personally benefitted by the operation of Saddam's torture chambers. And they happen to be a destructive minority in the country.

Should we have negotiated with active SS troops post WWII?

But at least we agree that foreign insurgents must be dealt with at the barrel of a gun. We've got a start here.

Some are Baathists.

And some are just pissed off because we failed to provide adequate security, power, and relief to their country. They may see us as just using them to take their oil and not really provide relief.

The minority Sunnis fear the same repression under a democracy will happen to them since they are the minority and will lose power.

We didn't negotiate with the SS per se, but we did use a lot of ex-Nazi's in the German post-war gov't.

And some Iraqi insurgents would even agree that the Foriegn fighters are useless, I even heard a report that a number were summarily executed by Iraqis for fleeing the battle in Falluja.

[John Ashcroft]

I saw that too. A great sign if you ask me.

All I can say is Iraq will be better off in the long run as a democracy. That much is for sure.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I saw that too. A great sign if you ask me.

All I can say is Iraq will be better off in the long run as a democracy. That much is for sure.

I agree, but it might not end up as we pictured it in the beginning. In fact I think it already hasn't.

[Cathedral]

Democracy will not settle in overnight, regardless.
Keep in mind that they have never lived under law in a democratic society, and it will take years for it to calm down even if the war ended tomorrow.
The first thing each and every one of them has to learn, is the value of human life.
That, in and of itself, may be a tougher task to pull off than the war itself.

Until then, I would plug any insurgent i find hanging on the edge of death for two reasons:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.

As brutal as the incident in question appears to some, there is no telling how many lives could have been saved by that act.
I wouldn't say he deserves a medal for it if there were no weapons found in that building, but he isn't a criminal if his actions only equal those of the enemy.

It's not as if he went walking down the street shooting anything that moved, meaning women and children.
The man was the enemy, and the enemy cannot be trusted...case closed.

[Seshmeister]

Spoken like a true christian...

[Nickdfresh]

U.S. Troops to Quell Other Hotspots

November 23, 2004

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
Marines Take Aim at a New Hot Spot


By Bruce Wallace, Times Staff Writer


JABELLA, Iraq — U.S. Marines accompanied by Iraqi security forces launched a new offensive early today aimed at regaining control of northern Babil province, a region just south of Baghdad beset by kidnappings, shootings and carjackings for more than a year.


Backed by helicopters and airplanes, the combined forces raided more than a dozen homes in this small market town and arrested 32 men who they believe have been involved in the long-running series of attacks on Iraqi national guardsmen, U.S. troops and civilians.

Over the next few days, officials said, more than 5,000 American and British troops, along with 1,200 Iraqis, were expected to take part in the offensive, dubbed Operation Plymouth Rock.

Terming it their first major post-Fallouja campaign to regain control of an insurgent-riddled area outside Baghdad, officials said they would continue a series of preplanned raids in towns and farming areas largely within a so-called "death triangle" of cities bordered by Latifiya, Mahmoudiya and Yousifiya. U.S. troops have also engaged in a series of counterattacks to quell resistance in Mosul, Baghdad and other towns in the wake of their offensive to regain control of the rebel stronghold of Fallouja.

"We are going to push the fight back out to the enemy while he's reeling," said Capt. Tad Douglas, 28, who led an elite reconnaissance platoon of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit in the raids. "We've seen fighters from Fallouja filtering down here, and we're going to take the offensive while they're still licking their wounds."

The operation began in the predawn darkness less than a day after Iraqi security forces recovered 12 bodies in Latifiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, where kidnappings of highway travelers have been commonplace for months. Five of the bodies had been beheaded, and one was identified as that of an Iraqi national guardsman kidnapped from a nearby town several weeks ago.

Earlier this month, U.S. Marines found the bodies of about 20 Iraqi national guard recruits, some in civilian clothes, who had been killed execution-style in a mosque and elsewhere west of Latifiya.

The largely Sunni Muslim towns and small cities in this rural region just a short drive south of Baghdad are home to an estimated 1 million people and were a stronghold of deposed President Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

The region is also home to many of Hussein's Fedayeen fighters and elite Republican Guards, who were among the greatest losers in last year's U.S.-led invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq as Hussein's armed forces were defeated and then disbanded.

American officers believe Sunni rebels are also responsible for blowing up bridges and planting the roadside bombs that make north Babil a terrifying gantlet for anyone traveling between Baghdad and the Shiite Muslim cities to the south.

With operations in nearby Fallouja winding down, the Marines say they are now turning their attention to the problems south of Baghdad, where thousands of U.S. troops are being assisted by about 850 British soldiers who were recently dispatched from bases in southern Iraq to relieve U.S. forces preparing for Fallouja.

To succeed, the Marines, assisted by the British and Iraqi troops, will have to root out the insurgents among residents of the farming towns and villages that run along the Euphrates. Fed by the river and a network of canals, the land is a lush plain of farms and market towns, a landscape of high grass and deep ditches that provide cover for rebels setting up fake checkpoints or firing on convoys along the highway.

The area was also a center of Hussein's military industries and munitions plants and remains awash in explosives and skilled workers who know how to use them. Among the facilities in the region is the Al Qaqaa ammunition site, where about 380 tons of high-grade explosives were believed to have been looted after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003.

Marines have uncovered several weapons caches in northern Babil province buried in dirt fields. The arms include mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and 500-pound bombs. At this point, though, they believe they have made only a dent in the supply.

In undertaking the operation, Marine Col. Ron Johnson said the aim was to squeeze the insurgents by taking territory and freedom of movement from them. Johnson's 2,200 Marines at Forward Operating Base Kalsu have already increased their presence in the province through more aggressive patrolling of towns and back roads.

The heightened tempo is aimed at the insurgents or criminals who had grown accustomed to moving through the province with near-impunity. Marines have detained more than 600 Iraqis in raids or at roadblocks since early August.

"There are multiple factions competing for power with a multitude of interests — some of them are no more than thugs — and they want to take advantage of the chaos," said Johnson, who declared that "there will be no place my men won't go" in north Babil.

The insurgents have fired back on patrols and on low-flying helicopters backing up the ground forces. They have also planted more homemade bombs along the province's roads. The number of such explosive devices that have gone off or been defused has more than doubled since early fall.

It is not known how many of the fighters who fled Fallouja have retreated to north Babil. The Americans say they have received sketchy reports of sightings of Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born militant who has taken credit for the beheadings of hostages and numerous attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces.

As much of a prize as Zarqawi would be to the Marines, the American and British troops here say the fight in north Babil goes deeper, touching the heartland of the well-armed and desperate former fighters for Hussein's regime.

"You can't have a functioning country where Shiites cannot drive from their cities to the capital," said a senior military officer at Kalsu. "The insurgents know it. And everyone in Baghdad knows it."

Wallace is traveling with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. Times staff writer Ashraf Khalil in Baghdad contributed to this report.

https://latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-assault23nov23,0,4403931.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[Nickdfresh]

Iraq Forces have Success and Problems

November 23, 2004 E-mail story Print

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
This Time, Iraqis Fought a Good Fight in Fallouja
U.S. forces give proteges kudos for digging up intelligence, storming mosques and other tasks. But the baton won't be passed soon.


By Patrick J. McDonnell, Times Staff Writer


FALLOUJA, Iraq — Upon his triumphant entry into this former rebel bastion following a U.S.-led assault, the top American commander in the country singled out Iraqi troops for special tribute.

"Iraq needs leaders like you," Army Gen. George W. Casey declared last week to the U.S.-trained officers arrayed before him.

About 2,000 Iraqi soldiers, police and special forces fought alongside 10,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers in the battle for Fallouja. The Iraqis' role was comparatively modest in what was clearly a U.S. show, but top American commanders were upbeat about the results.

For one thing, there have been no mass desertions since the operation began Nov. 8, unlike what occurred during an aborted Marine assault on the city in the spring. Many members of Iraqi security forces walked away from the earlier fight, embarrassing officials with the U.S. occupation.

This time around, U.S. officials, mindful of what is often referred to as putting an "Iraqi face" on events here, accent the positive. They say the Iraqis were especially useful here in unearthing intelligence, identifying non-Iraqi insurgents, clearing homes of enemy fighters, searching for weapons caches and staffing humanitarian aid sites. At least one specially trained police unit, working with U.S. "mentors," was used to storm several mosques.

"The Iraqis have been a tremendous asset," said Maj. Gen. Richard F. Natonski, commander of the 1st Marine Division.

Privately, some commanders and experts on military issues said they were less confident that Iraqi troops were ready to take on a more independent role in providing security for the country.

"The big test is when the Iraqis have to do something like this by themselves — and not with Marines helping them out," said one U.S. officer who was involved in the Fallouja assault. "Let's see how they get from point A to point B then."

That the Iraqis' role was limited in the large-scale operation was not surprising. Iraq's army, once the largest in the Middle East, remains a work in progress that lacks manpower, weapons, training, air power and armored units.

Although the three Iraqi battalions fighting here had been battle tested in clashes with insurgents, only one attacked independently, commanders say. The others were directly attached to U.S. units. Even the quasi-independent battalion was guided by U.S. advisors and was part of a larger command reporting to a Marine colonel.

"They can't do what we did here by themselves," acknowledged Army Maj. Hunter Floyd, a senior advisor to one of the Iraqi battalions deployed here. "They don't have tanks…. They don't have the armor that we have. But they're getting there. The master plan has all that stuff."

Paul Beaver, a British defense analyst based in London, said the Iraqi national guard was hampered by insufficient training and a lack of experience working from an American military perspective.

"They've done as well as can be expected under the circumstances," he said. "The problem was the Americans didn't organize them soon enough."

An Iraqi force that is able to undertake such operations on its own may be a long time in coming, said Andrew Krepinevich, an expert in counterinsurgency warfare and executive director of the Center for Strategic Budgetary Assessments in Washington.

"The tension is, can the indigenous Iraqi forces take on a large enough role in the defense of their own country before the U.S. Army begins to run into severe problems with respect to recruiting and retaining soldiers? And right now, it looks as though it's going to be quite some time. You've got to be concerned. At some point the Army, which has performed remarkably well, will begin to show the stresses and the strains."

Casualty figures underscore the comparative role of the two forces in Fallouja. U.S. troops suffered almost 10 times as many casualties — 51 killed in action and 425 wounded — as their Iraqi counterparts, authorities said late last week. The fighting left eight Iraqi soldiers dead and 43 wounded.

U.S. forces also appeared to have been taken out of the fight by their injuries at a higher rate. More than 90% of the Iraqi wounded returned to the battlefield compared with fewer than one-third of injured U.S. troops.

Among U.S. forces, there was much eye-rolling about some of the Iraqis' undisciplined habits: eschewing helmets at times, not handling weapons by the book, firing rocket-propelled grenades when smaller arms would suffice. Several of the Iraqis' injuries were said to have resulted from negligent discharges of their own weapons.

"They don't seem to know what a safety [setting] is on their AKs," one Marine said, referring to assault rifles.

Remarked another Marine who fought alongside the Iraqis, "I was afraid the whole time they were going to shoot me."

But U.S. forces here also paid homage to their comrades in arms. In fact, Marines put up a billboard at the entrance to the city extolling a former Iraqi national guard commander who is believed to have been killed by insurgents this summer.

Iraqi troops interviewed here displayed great pride about their part in the operation, eagerly recounting their exploits.

Staff Sgt. Adel Ahmed led a reporter to a spot outside a yellow schoolhouse in central Fallouja. There, he said, his troops had finished off a fighter carrying Syrian identification. The Iraqis pointed to a protruding mound of earth behind the school where, they said, the Syrian was buried.

"We are fighting to save our Iraq from foreigners and terrorists," Ahmed declared.

Most Iraqi troops here appear to be either Shiite Muslims or Kurds. Both groups are rivals of the minority Sunni Muslim Arabs who have long dominated Iraq and constitute the majority of Fallouja's population.

At one base, Kurdish could be heard spoken along with Arabic.

Many Iraqi fighters here are former peshmerga, as Kurdish guerrillas were known. For many Kurds and Shiites, long repressed by the regime of Saddam Hussein, there is a special satisfaction in fighting to crush a Sunni Arab stronghold where many people still support the ousted president.

"We were all more motivated when we saw the evidence showing these fighters were killing innocent people," said Lt. Col. Ali Naeem, a Shiite from the southern city of Basra who headed the 1st Battalion of the 1st Brigade of the Iraqi Intervention Force, the semi-independent unit that invaded Fallouja with U.S. advisors. "The insurgents kicked people out of their homes and took over their houses."

But the preponderance of Shiites and Kurds also points to one of the Iraqi army's potential weaknesses: The failure to attract sufficient recruits from Sunni cities, where hostility toward America runs high and many young men choose to enlist in guerrilla forces instead.

Naeem's battalion attacked the northwest corner of the city, in what is known as the Old Jolan neighborhood. It is a stronghold of two pillars of the insurgency: religious militants and nationalist stalwarts of the old regime. Searches yielded a potential intelligence bonanza, commanders say.

The Iraqis are said to have uncovered extensive information about insurgent networks, notably that of Abu Musab Zarqawi, the notorious Jordanian-born militant said to have operated out of Fallouja.

"They see a lot of things we just pass over," said Marine Capt. Ken Gardner, an Arabic speaker working with Iraqi troops here. "They'll look underneath some books or some innocent-looking papers and find lists of fighters for mooj [mujahedin] cells or foreign fighter cells. They found a lot of stuff."

From his military-issue sport utility vehicle, the intelligence officer for the Iraqi battalion working in Old Jolan pulled out a pair of bloody surgical gloves, stored in a plastic bag that once held U.S. military rations. He then brandished a handcrafted, 2-foot knife, curved like a scimitar and bearing ochre stains on its dark blade.

"This is dried blood," said the officer, who declined to give his name, citing fear of assassination. "They used it for beheadings. We found it at a terrorist's home."

The officer then produced two more long knives found in homes in the neighborhood along with a flag for Zarqawi's organization and other incriminating material. All would be turned over to U.S. intelligence authorities, he said.

The Iraqi forces in Old Jolan are also responsible for preventing guerrillas who escaped during the fighting from returning from neighboring farmland.

In the view of the American troops, the quicker the Iraqi forces get up to speed for such tasks, the better. The emergence of effective Iraqi forces, they say, is the only way to guarantee that large numbers of U.S. troops do not have to keep coming back to Fallouja.

"Hopefully, we can make the Iraqis understand it's their city to fight for," said Marine Staff Sgt. Ben Sturges, a reservist and power-plant engineer from San Francisco. "That way we won't have to spend the next 20 years here."

Times staff writers Emma Schwartz in Washington and Janet Stobart in London contributed to this report

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral

Until then, I would plug any insurgent i find hanging on the edge of death for two reasons:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.

As brutal as the incident in question appears to some, there is no telling how many lives could have been saved by that act.
I wouldn't say he deserves a medal for it if there were no weapons found in that building, but he isn't a criminal if his actions only equal those of the enemy.

You may end up causing Americans to die if the insurgents refused to surrender as a result.

"Equel to that of the enemy?"

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Spoken like a true christian...

C'mon man...

What's your idea of a good christian response ??

Cat said:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.


Should it have been:

1) Explain to the insurgent how Jesus is real and how he died for his sins

2) Let him kill me and as many other americans as he can


C'mon Sesh...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Excellent post ODShow! Compelling story on what is clearly not a black and white issue regardless of perspective!

I guess I can understand that his journalistic integrity would be questioned if he decided not to report the story. I don't think that equates to the outrage in the muslim world from the story. But then again, we've already invaded an sovereign country based mostly on lies and deception and been implicated in a deeply offensive sexual torture scandal, so I don't think our PR campaign was really winning over any hearts or minds.

I found it intriging that the reporter had previously saved the lives of the soldiers around him my alerting them to the fire near the AA ammo. He sounded like a class act, other than questionable judgement on releasing the tape.

The bottom line is that war is fucked up. We don't need to get up to the minute updates from every platoon. Millions of people around the world just aren't intelligent or informed enough to be able to understand the mitigating circumstances surrounded such an event. I'm just glad this offensive didn't bog down. I guess it never does with the Marines.