Gore Laments U.S. 'Abuses' Against Arabs

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, see, I find that it's better to serve in the National Guard than to out and out dodge the draft.

'
Not when you use elitest connections to get the position, and fly a plane that would never, ever be deployed to Vietnam since it was incapable of actual dogfighting...

I find taking a hike to England a coward's way out, then claiming 'I'm against the war'.

Cop out.

Taking a hike? He was a Rhodes Scholar.

When did he ever claim to support the abortion of Vietnam?

[Warham]

Yep, taking a hike.

Plenty of intelligent people have served in the armed forces. Clinton wasn't any better than any of them.

Let me get this straight. If George Bush had left the country for a year over to England, and then said he was 'against the war', you'd say he was alright in doing that? I doubt it.

I think what'd you say was that he was a 'chickenshit' for leaving during the War, and didn't have the gonads to wait around for his number to come up.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Yep, taking a hike.

Plenty of intelligent people have served in the armed forces. Clinton wasn't any better than any of them.

But he wasn't drafted. BTW, have you served? Can we comment on your service?

Let me get this straight. If George Bush had left the country for a year over to England, and then said he was 'against the war', you'd say he was alright in doing that? I doubt it.

Actually, I would be amazed if he was...

But since he likes starting wars, I doubt that's very plausible... Though, some Neo Con philosophers were Marxists in college, during the 60's. I guess once a nihilist, delusional, ideologue always a nihilist, delusional ideologue...

I think what'd you say was that he was a 'chickenshit' for leaving during the War, and didn't have the gonads to wait around for his number to come up.

I think he was pursuing his education, much the same way that members of the upper classes used money and connections to avoid service. CLINTON avoided nothing, he wasn't drafted...

And Clinton never invaded anybody using flowery rhetoric. Though he once did consider invading IRAN...

[Warham]

You can avoid service without being drafted.

Clinton had pull back then.

You don't become a President of the US without having pull your whole life.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
Yep, taking a hike.

Plenty of intelligent people have served in the armed forces. Clinton wasn't any better than any of them.

Let me get this straight. If George Bush had left the country for a year over to England, and then said he was 'against the war', you'd say he was alright in doing that? I doubt it.

As a neutral on this I think that Clinton's position was more honorable.

Firstly it was a dumb fucking war and if you could get out of it you should.

Clinton managed to avoid it on a scholarship which is at least a meritocratic way out open to any American that worked his ass off academically. Bush avoided the war through the influence of his dad. And don't try and kid yourself that getting a few free flying lessons in the National Guard is in any way got something to do with serving your country in wartime.

Secondly it's to do with their actions afterwards. The US is peculiar amongst Western democracies in thinking that their leaders should have a military or psuedo military background but there is less hypocrisy in an ex lawyer being a hawk than a spoilt little rich kid whose powerful parents pulled strings and effectively used corruption to get him out of danger then imperilling the lives of tens of thousands in order to protect his families oil interests.

It stinks.

Even with our ludicrous monarchy head of state thing here at least the royal family usually sticks a couple of their kids in harms way. And they don't even have any power.

[Seshmeister]

If the US is a fair system why is George Bush president?

Is that the best the US has. The fucking best guy for the job out of 250 million? His dad being the ex president and ex head of the CIA is just a fucking 250 million x 250 million to one coincidence.

Or maybe it's just a spectacular gene line?

Gimme a break...

[Nitro Express]

Bush inhaled and Clinton didn't.

[Seshmeister]

Bush snorted.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
As a neutral on this I think that Clinton's position was more honorable.

Firstly it was a dumb fucking war and if you could get out of it you should.

Clinton managed to avoid it on a scholarship which is at least a meritocratic way out open to any American that worked his ass off academically. Bush avoided the war through the influence of his dad. And don't try and kid yourself that getting a few free flying lessons in the National Guard is in any way got something to do with serving your country in wartime.

Really? Perhaps you can explain that one to the men of the Air National Guard who were shot down over Vietnam. Doofus.

Link

[blueturk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Really? Perhaps you can explain that one to the men of the Air National Guard who were shot down over Vietnam. Doofus.

Link

Bush has as much in common with the men of the Air National Guard who were shot down over Vietnam as Sammy Hagar does with David Lee Roth. Although I must admit that the Viet Cong never attacked Alabama while Dubya was flying around there wasting taxpayer money...

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Warham
Yep, taking a hike.

Plenty of intelligent people have served in the armed forces. Clinton wasn't any better than any of them.

Let me get this straight. If George Bush had left the country for a year over to England, and then said he was 'against the war', you'd say he was alright in doing that? I doubt it.

I think what'd you say was that he was a 'chickenshit' for leaving during the War, and didn't have the gonads to wait around for his number to come up.

Your personal boogeyman Clinton never claimed to serve honorably like Dubya tried to say that he did. Even the most devoted sheep have to admit that Bush's "service" is somewhat less than impressive.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Really? Perhaps you can explain that one to the men of the Air National Guard who were shot down over Vietnam. Doofus.

Link

LMFAO!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Really? Perhaps you can explain that one to the men of the Air National Guard who were shot down over Vietnam. Doofus.

Link

Were they flying F-102s?

(Or skipping weekend drill?)

I doubt it...

**Edit**

"We have established F-102s were in South Vietnam?" LMFAO! Bull-fucking-shit!! What units were there? How many? How many MIG kills did they have???

Horse shit!

[Warham]

The Air National Guard has often been ridiculed as a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. However, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in Thailand since 1961 and South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the region as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

USAF F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in both nations throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. The F-102 was considered one of the most useful air defense aircraft in theater because it had the fastest response time of any fighter stationed in South Vietnam.


Rows of F-102 fighters stationed at Tan Son Nhut in Vietnam in 1969

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

[Nickdfresh]

They were withdrawn in 1969 too, since they were useless against MIG-17/19s and MIG-21s, something any pilot flying them would know... I'm guessing they were taught to run when faced with a nimble Soviet designed fighter, at least after 1968.

The F-102 was designed only as a continental interceptor to down Soviet nuclear bombers, and could not maneuver in a dogfight. It was useless in air to air combat against a fighter, due to the flawed USAF doctrine at the time that dogfighting was obsolete: the thing didn't even have a 20mm Vulcan gun on it! And the USAF had an 11-1 kill ratio in the Korean War, but this had dropped to less than a 2-1 air combat kill ratio during Vietnam, due to almost criminal incompetence of USAF generals and their "missile only" doctrine. But that's another discussion...

...USAF F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in both nations throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. The F-102 was considered one of the most useful air defense aircraft in theater because it had the fastest response time of any fighter stationed in South Vietnam.

While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of air combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with unguided rockets, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Amazingly, some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though the F-102 had not been designed for this type of combat, pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets. An Aviation Week article of the period credited the 509th FIS, an F-102 squadron stationed in Vietnam, with destroying 106 buildings, damaging 59 more, sinking 16 sampans, and destroying one bridge during 199 sorties over the course of 45 days.

Ooooh! They did light ground attack with "rocket pods" (something I suspect was merely a test by the USAF to see how they were operationally). And one was shot down by a MIG-21 without any kills attributed to the F-102?????? Disgraceful!! (that's another discussion though).

Wow, if BUSH were a real pilot, he would have flown an aircraft that actually saw combat duty such as the F-4 Phantom, A-4, A-7, F-5, or the F-105 "Thud" Thunderchief... They were called "Thuds" as a short for thunder obviously, but the pilots who flew them swore it was the sound they made after being shot down by NVA SAMS...

And second of all, how many Air Nat'l Guard squadrons were sent to Vietnam? I could be wrong, but I read that ALL OF THE F-102s THERE WERE FLOWN BY REGULAR UNITS. Why did he not become a pilot in the actual regular US Air Force? Why go into the ANG at all? Because he was dramatically reducing his chances of seeing air combat over North Vietnam any way you slice it!

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG, where Bush was stationed, even served combat duty in Vietnam routinely under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline service. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not actually activating any ANG squadrons.

Oh, he could have gone to Vietnam had he volunteered, and according to a close friend, tried to...

Well, why not just join the regular USAF?

Nice, interesting CYA article though, the F-102 is barely mentioned in regards to the Vietnam War, largely because it was a shit aircraft based on very flawed thinking (but that's another discussion)...

From: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ry/q0185.shtml