Elly's First Flame

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions




Bin Laden follows and teaches the Quaran in it's most literal sense of every word...furthering the push for the prophecies to be fulfilled. He is honestly recruiting on the basis of fearing Muslims into believing that if they don't do exactly as it's written they'll be banished to torment.

NOW LETS READ THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH WITH A FEW CHANGES, SHALL WE?


BUSH follows and teaches the BIBLE in it's most literal sense of every word...furthering the push for the prophecies to be fulfilled. He is honestly recruiting on the basis of fearing CHRITIANS into believing that if they don't do exactly as it's written they'll be banished to torment.


Same crusade, different names......

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Point well made and taken, but still you're settling on symantics.

Really?

How so



This whole mindset that if we just wiped out the other guys, or got them to think, act, and believe like us, the world would be just fine is a joke.


Just like BushCO spreading "democracy and freedom" in the Middle East at the end of a rifle.



There is no difference between any "war on terror" or "war on the infidels"

It's charismatic leaders furthering their own agenda by spilling the blood of others.


In my mind, what Bush, Perle, Wolfowitz, Cheney, et al did was no worse than any other "terrorist" act in the last 20 years.

Except they slaughtered TENS of thousands of innocent civilians.

[Ellyllions]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all.

I don't see how Iraq had been left the way it was for so long in the first place. Celebs stomping around holding whole concerts for Africa when the people of Iraq were living in just as much squalor. Do we pick and choose who we help? If so, how do we make that distinction?

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers is contaminated because 40 years of raw sewage being dumped into it. People had to bathe, drink, and cook with that water under Saddam while he had food testers, all the medicines he needed, and bathed in gold plated bathtubs.

I agree that it didn't turn out like it should've, but I don't agree that it shouldn't have taken place. Just because the two cultures can't understand each other doesn't make it wrong. And as far as civilian casualties....that's a sad fact of war. Saddam had 1 1/2 years to keep it from happening. But he didn't comply with the UN resolutions because HE didn't care about casualties.


But time and distance builds complacency...

[Nickdfresh]

Well, U.S. airstrikes did target sewage treatment plants during the Gulf War I... Some would say that that is a form of biological warfare...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


Do we pick and choose who we help? If so, how do we make that distinction?

Yes, dear. We do.

Always have.

How did we make the distinction this time?

Well, just look at the 14 permanent military bases and the world's largest embassey being built.


Sorry, but I don't recall saving the Iraqis from "squalor" as ever being a reason cited for the invasion and occupation.

And 3 years later, the water, sewer, power.....fuck the whole damn infrastructure is worse than before. But now you can get blown up much quicker and easier.

And flying in private contractors while Iraqis go unemployed and hungry doesn't exactly boost your theory either.

If you think this WAR is about any "humanitarian" motive then you're right, we will never agree.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Well, U.S. airstrikes did target sewage treatment plants during the Gulf War I... Some would say that that is a form of biological warfare...

Yeah, and if this war was such a humanitarian endeavour as Elly would like to believe, what did we do in Gulf I, the prequel to help the Iraqi people other than get them slaughtered by abandoning them after telling them if they rose up we'd be there.

C'mon Ell.

[Ellyllions]

I just see the humanitarian side of it. From the people that I know over there. They would literally bend over backwards for the Iraqi's after being there since Saddam was captured.

My problem with the anti-Iraq war stance is that it's got tunnel vision. People get so into the possible and "what-if's" that they fail to see anything but Bush and Rumsfeld and the oil fields. When there honestly was so much more to it from the beginning.

Failed intelligence isn't one person's fault....but the whole thing could've been avoided if Saddam had given what he was asked for in the 1 1/2 years before the shooting started. But it's so typical of our society not to place any blame on the offended. When right now, Saddam's defense team is in danger of being killed by their own people. That should say something to the American public.

Bottom line is that it's done and we're there. We honestly should be doing MUCH more in word and deed in getting it overwith and out. Instead of constantly rehashing a 5 year old argument.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions



The Tigris and Euphrates rivers is contaminated because 40 years of raw sewage being dumped into it. People had to bathe, drink, and cook with that water under Saddam while he had food testers, all the medicines he needed, and bathed in gold plated bathtubs.

Is that why we invaded?

really?

It wasn't mushroom cloud like WMDs and 9/11?


Well, we should be invading Darfur any day now, right?

And let's declare war on New Orleans while we're at it. They're still living in squalor.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I just see the humanitarian side of it.

That's nice that you do, sincerely......

But do you really believe for ONE FUCKING MOMENT that BushCO gave a rat's ass about any humanitarian motive?

Just answer that honestly, please.

[Ellyllions]

Too bad Brad Pitt and Bono haven't done something to benefit the pre-war Iraq.

Badgering me isn't going to make me believe differently Lounge. It's really not necessary or helpful.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
That's nice that you do, sincerely......

But do you really believe for ONE FUCKING MOMENT that BushCO gave a rat's ass about any humanitarian motive?

Just answer that honestly, please.

I don't know if any of Government does anything humanitarian without some benefit to itself. I've said that a thousand times here. Even started a whole thread about it.

But I do know that they weren't upset with us for leaving them in '91 for nothing. Just as you stated before...

Maybe I'm a naive person who honestly believes that everyone should have some quality of life. But aren't you glad that there ARE people like me out there?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I


....but the whole thing could've been avoided if Saddam had given what he was asked for in the 1 1/2 years before the shooting started.

So if Saddam had "given what he was asked for" we never would have invaded and occupied?

Well, sorry Ell, but that sure shoots down your whole "we are there to lift the Iraqis out of squalor" argument.

Which is it?

[Ellyllions]

Still, I didn't say that was the REASON we are there. I just implied that it would be a good reason to be there...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions

Maybe I'm a naive person who honestly believes that everyone should have some quality of life. But aren't you glad that there ARE people like me out there?

Of course I am.

But that statement alone tells me you're more LEFT than RIGHT :D


The NeoCon agenda is all about the top 1%, and destroying the middle class.

This administration is very selective when it comes to doling out "quality of life"


Let's not forget why we REALLY invaded, okay?

Trying to turn it into a humanitarian effort is admirable, and a very worthwhile cause.

But it WASN'T why we did it. Let's not rewrite history.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Still, I didn't say that was the REASON we are there. I just implied that it would be a good reason to be there...

Originally posted by Ellyllions

I agree that it didn't turn out like it should've, but I don't agree that it shouldn't have taken place. .

You can see how one could get confused, right?


You're saying it SHOULD have taken place......but we should have dropped supplies, not BOMBS