All in Favor, say "Aye"

[FORD]

Originally posted by Little Texan
Can you point out where it says that on the PNAC site?

Page 63 of their "Rebuilding America's Defenses" PDF doccument starts off with...

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor......

Another section of the same document discusses the use of biological weapons that will only attack certain genetics, and describes these weapons as "politically useful tools". (page 72)

It's really some sick shit.

[Little Texan]

Thanks

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by m_dixon1984
It's the fanatical BCE/PNAC conspiracy theories that I have a hard time swallowing and will continue to post smart ass responses to. If I start to see some original postings from you, where you've done more than spout someone else's position, then maybe then I'll grace you with some of what I've come to believe.

hey moron, where in lounge's post that you were initially responding to did he mention any "BCE/PNAC conspiracy"?

1] Continue to lose an average of a soldier a day, and a hundred civilians.

2] Continue to spend a billion dollars a week.

3] Continue to be stuck in a civil war with no exit strategy whatsoever other than the tired old "we'll stand down when they stand up"

4] Continue to cling to the belief we are fighting terrorism and not instigating it with stories of abuse, rape, and murder.

Do you see it in there?


No one really acts like that. ... Except FORD.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by binnie
Cutting and running doesn't seem like a good option to me.

Our governements went into this war promising the Iraqi people order, democracy and freedom,

They went into this war telling us that if we didn't then within 40 minutes Iraq could be sending long range missiles at us full of chemical/biological or nuclear weapons.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by binnie
Alternatively, could we consider getting the UN to move in in a peace keeping capacity, at least that might not seem like an occupation to the Iraqi people? I haven't heard any reports suggesting that this has been discussed....

Where is the UN going to find 200 000 troops to sort out a mess that the majority of the members think is the fault of the US and UK.

You think Germany or France is going to send half their troops into Iraq to be blown up by nutters that don't want peace?

That's why it hasn't been discussed...

[LoungeMachine]

The coalition of the willing has cut and run.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by binnie
Couple of point Lounge, you have raised a very important issue here.

The money, in my opinion is irrelevant - wars are expensive the US and UK are tow of the worlds richest countires and it seems to me our duty to deliver the "free Iraq" that was promised.

Yes, we are fanning terrosim, not fighting it. But it seems to me that the role in Iraq is to keep order.

Now I know at present it doesn't seem to be very successful, but imagine if there was no impediment to terrorist or other insurgent actions - I think it would descend to civil war in a simialr way to Yugoslavia did.

The situation is impossibly ugly, but I can't help thinking it would be much worse with no western pressence.

What ids really needed is the time to train up effective military and poilce made up of Iraqi's, and the framework for them to work.

After 3 years there are no effective military or police made up of Iraqis because the US government dismantelled them all and then tried to rebuild them. It's not going to happen at least in the next 10 years.

If we're not stealing there oil because we can't even get it out of the place then fuck it, what's the point?

If it's a moral thing then lets go invade Burma or another dozen other fucked up countries in the world.

At least in those the population might not hate our troops.

That can never happen though because wars are almost always about money and ruling class self interest. Don't kid yourself.


Cheers!

[Big Train]

I'm curious where the proverbial "better idea" is. It certainly is not residing on the liberal side. They have had years to formulate one, but they are still just jockeying off who is the best to play off Bush. And they suck at that too.

I'm open to any and every idea. Independent thinkers please step forward.

And perhaps a temporary break from the word "fascists" which has been beat into the ground?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
I'm curious where the proverbial "better idea" is. It certainly is not residing on the liberal side. They have had years to formulate one, but they are still just jockeying off who is the best to play off Bush. And they suck at that too.

I'm open to any and every idea. Independent thinkers please step forward.

And perhaps a temporary break from the word "fascists" which has been beat into the ground?

Oh bullshit. There are several solutions being offered, read the board. And what is the status quo Bush idea anyways? Stay with a limited number of troops that cannot achieve anything more than staving off complete social break down? More of the same is no solution either, is it, sunshine?

[Seshmeister]

The better idea is pretty fucking simple for our governments.

Admit that they fucked up and get the fuck out of that shithole. Even by telling a 100 lies and spinning the truth like fuck they barely got 50% of the population onside. Al Queda, what little of it ever existed got their asses kicked in Afghanistan but then got a 1000% increase in supporters after the fuckups in Iraq.

With such spectacular incompetant cuntups no wonder people like Ford think it's all a big deliberate cuntspiracy.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
The coalition of the willing has cut and run.

The coalition of Bush Blair and half a dozen truck drivers from Eastern Europe looking for trade concessions. They should have realised that 'Yo Blair' got fuck all from sucking and swallowing Bush's cock in the 'special relationship' so they were hardly likely to get a reach around trade wise....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
I'm curious where the proverbial "better idea" is. It certainly is not residing on the liberal side. They have had years to formulate one, but they are still just jockeying off who is the best to play off Bush. And they suck at that too.

You cannot be fucking serious


Turn off Faux long enough, and you might just learn something.


Jesus Fucking Christ.


Right........NO alternatives to "stay the course" have been offered.

whatever

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
I'm curious where the proverbial "better idea" is. It certainly is not residing on the liberal side. They have had years to formulate one, but they are still just jockeying off who is the best to play off Bush. And they suck at that too.

A "better idea" requires an initial "good" idea, or any idea at all for that matter. Your leader has neither.

"I think -- tide turning -- see, as I remember -- I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of -- it's easy to see a tide turn -- did I say those words?" --George W. Bush, asked if the tide was turning in Iraq, Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006

[binnie]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh




They've been trying to "train" up an Iraqi force for about three years now, apparently, it's not working...

I appreciate that, my point is that it would be a whole lot worse if they wern't there at all.

We owe it to the Iraqi people, who we have fucked over big time, to provide some semblance of order - however lomg it takes.

I don't see an alternative, can they sort this out themselves?

[binnie]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
They went into this war telling us that if we didn't then within 40 minutes Iraq could be sending long range missiles at us full of chemical/biological or nuclear weapons.

True, but when they failed to materilaise it quickly turned to "democracy, freedom, he's a Hitler, they abuse women, human rights," and whatever other rhetoric they could throw in there....


And the propaganda to the Iraqi's was always democracy, freedom etc etc....