All in Favor, say "Aye"

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by binnie
I appreciate that, my point is that it would be a whole lot worse if they wern't there at all.

We owe it to the Iraqi people, who we have fucked over big time, to provide some semblance of order - however lomg it takes.

I don't see an alternative, can they sort this out themselves?

The Iraqi people need to sort this out for themselves...

If they live in post-colonial land of arbitrarily drawn borders and forcibly mixed nationalities, then they need to either come to a national reconciliation, or break up ala Yugoslavia. Iraq is one state with three nations...

[m_dixon1984]

Very hard for the US to pull out of Iraq now. They'd end up being accused of abandoning the people all over again, ala Bush Sr.

However, if a civil war breaks out, and all indications are that there will be one, where does that leave the US? Between a rock and a hard place. I'm generally in agreement that the US should finish what they started. But how? A civil war would bring the kind of instability that would make any US involvement an exercise in futility.

I'm actually going to agree with Nickdfresh here, all previous bickering aside, that splitting the country up may be a solution. If this could be brokered by an international team, including mid-east and Arab nations, then it could succeed. It would also give the US an oppotunity to bug-out while saving face a little. National unity seems an unlikely proposition.

M

PS - Nickdfesh, I think I unfairly characterized you as a BCE/PNAC conspiracy theory supporter. After some reflection I've determined that I was mistaken. Your posts are often more moderate than others. My bad.

[binnie]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The Iraqi people need to sort this out for themselves...

If they live in post-colonial land of arbitrarily drawn borders and forcibly mixed nationalities, then they need to either come to a national reconciliation, or break up ala Yugoslavia. Iraq is one state with three nations...

That's true, they are three nations - however, look at the bloodshed and genocide that resulted from the Yugoslavia "sort out": tens of thousands of people butchered and women of all ages raped in order to anialate an ethnicity. If we leave the Iraqi people to do this themselves, we may be responsible for a similar situation.

Also, the US and UK started this - Saddam was a cruel tyrant, but at least he held a semblance of order. With no direction, we could end with carnage that would de-stabilize the middle east further.

The history of democracies show us that things are never easy: when you put power in the hands of the people, you autiomoatically raise the question of who are "the people", who has that right. In the early 20th century, democracy caused ethnic wars all over Europe (Yugolsavia, Greece, Macedonia all spring to mind) and that is being repeated in Iraq right now.

I agree that Iraq needs to sort it out themselves, but they need help to do so, I think a complete withdrawal would be an utter catastrophe.

I appreciate your views on this topic though: I may not agree with you, but you have really made me think.