Straight from the horses mouth

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
You and your fellow Democrats are causing the Al Qaeda supported insurgency to use more catastrophic attacks against us and Iraqi forces. You will see more SVBIED’s with chlorine gas, more VBIED’s against civilians and security forces every time you and other Democrats open your mouths.

I'm not owning up to being a democrat, but I take offense to this statement.

gw&friends have lost all credibility with anyone who pays attention. Their incompetence has cost them any trust that we had in them.

The time has come to remove their hands from the reigns of power.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
It never WAS the "war we went into" because the war we were TOLD we were going into NEVER EXISTED.

Even Poppy Bush knew better......

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different— and perhaps barren— outcome.

Poppy wrote that in a book in 1998. I despise the man, and for good reason, but he NAILED that one. Too bad his idiot son ignored his words.

NO ONE thought that it would be a roll over and turn into a guerrilla war. Well, no one but generals, military strategists, and other informed individuals. how hard would it have been to secure the main ammo dumps that we knew of?

And bush is so god-damn correct up there it's mind-boggling. I felt it was a shame to see the UN's authority get violated by the US.

Then again, they were suckling from saddam's teat with all that oil for food money.

sigh.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I'm just trying to shed some light that it's not the Policians stance that we should be looking to for guidance on this war. The feet on the ground is the BEST source of information.

And it's the one I choose to base my decision on.

No it's not. It's ONE source of information. One that can lead to interesting insights. But to truly understand a regional conflict with global consequences, I think you need to hear from more people than soldiers who are in charge of one street corner and receive access to limited media from filtered sources.

Too bad the CIA didn't listen to you when we needed more human intel and they fucked around with satellites.

Why didn't we see Saddam hiding the WMDs? Incompetence. Who's fault? I wonder what warham thinks...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
There are so many people who do not value the ideas of honor and integrity. These two words represent more than any picture could could show...more than the skill that I have to describe. Its something that many have experienced and know intimately. The Japanese had it right....honor is worth dieing for. It's that big. I support it. I teach my kids, "Always honor your promises, no matter how bad it hurts." Therein lies honor, integrity and respect. Am I on the wrong planet or am I on to something here?

If you're trying to make a pro-war argument, go ahead and look at the "honor and integrity" of the dipshits that got us stuck in this guerilla war.

Give me a fuckin break.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
To live forever as a gutless coward?.....a shame greater than death. Therein lies our impasse. Stripped down to its simplest terms.....life or death....your politics contradict themselves.

There are alot of wholes in this arguement....and I do so love debate. Find them.

Hey studly, you need to go get Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and a dictionary, and shut the fuck up.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I'm not owning up to being a democrat, but I take offense to this statement.

gw&friends have lost all credibility with anyone who pays attention. Their incompetence has cost them any trust that we had in them.

The time has come to remove their hands from the reigns of power.

I'm sorry that you're offended, but I didn't write that. That was part of "A word from [Gunnery]Sergeant Krueger, USMC, to Speaker Pelosi
By Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger" that I found.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yes. I talked to two MPs at a friends wedding years ago...

LMFAO. Hun,' your fucking delusional. Sorry, but there it is. The thin self-righteousness of your posts, seeped in self-serving ignorance, is telling to the point of offensiveness...

How about you're not "qualified" to make such overweening, gratuitous generalizations.

You're really not one to talk about self-righeousness, seeped in self-serving ignorance to the point of offensiveness....you actually take pride in stomping around in this board. But, I digress.

I think in fact that there is nary a NeoCOn war supported on this board that has ever seen any sort of service, and certainly not any combat. What gives them the right to claim to "support the troops" that are on their third tours because there simply are not enough servicemen to occupy Iraq properly? And then attack anyone posting the Walter Reed scandal article?

Anyone who sees this or any other war as an instance where people die has a right to be empathetic and supportive. And that's the only part of that paragraph I'm touching. My opinion is just as valid as yours. NeoCon, Moonbat....we're all entitled. I choose the stance that I'm hearing all around me now.

Oh, and BTW, I hate to break this to you: but a lot of US "boots on the ground" can't stand the Iraqis whom they often see as corrupted, incompetent, and infiltrated with Sunni resistance and Shiite Militias.

You're right on target, and that's part of my point of the long post that you quoted saying that I needed Zoloft. They've got the Iraqi's to contend with, but what do they have back home to look forward to? A vast sea of American's calling them "baby killers" and telling them that they can't finish their job. Because that's how they see this, that's how it translates to their ears. I keep hearing how this war is like the Vietnam war, well you're damn right....but it's ALL of the Vietnam war, not just the reason we went there. It's the aftermath too. Count on it, when these soldiers do finally come home, it'll be like 1975 all over again. No welcome home, and all because they were SENT there. Does that make sense?

My whole point? Don't you think we're alienating the same people we claim to be trying to save?

I think the idealism presented by these posts is largely contrived by NeoCon Republican partisans seeking to cover Dumbya's ass rather than to seek any sort of solution in Iraq.....

Of course you do. And that's why I mentioned Scientology....It's all conspiracy unless it's aligned with your way of thinking.

Really? Like your crap post about Democrats and Al Jazeera "inventing" US War crimes stories? We found chemical weapons in Iraq? Um, sorry, not really. Not the WMDs...

"Inventing" US War crimes? Um, that's not what I said at all...I said 3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

I can't help how you translate shit Nick.

We didn't find any chemical weapons? So where's the Chlorine gas, that's being used right now, coming from? But does it really matter? If I were able to prove it through some article or video all of you would dismiss it as being "Busheep" propaganda.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I'm sorry that you're offended, but I didn't write that. That was part of "A word from [Gunnery]Sergeant Krueger, USMC, to Speaker Pelosi
By Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger" that I found.

I understand that you didn't write it. I can read the heading of an article

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

And bush is so god-damn correct up there it's mind-boggling. I felt it was a shame to see the UN's authority get violated by the US.

Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.



BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

[Ellyllions]

Nobody is handing anyone their ass.

They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party".

At least they're consistent.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
You're really not one to talk about self-righeousness, seeped in self-serving ignorance to the point of offensiveness....you actually take pride in stomping around in this board. But, I digress.

I may indeed be a tea kettle here.

But how do I take anymore "pride in stomping around this board" than anyone else?

Anyone who sees this or any other war as an instance where people die has a right to be empathetic and supportive. And that's the only part of that paragraph I'm touching. My opinion is just as valid as yours. NeoCon, Moonbat....we're all entitled. I choose the stance that I'm hearing all around me now.

Quite contraire. I never said your opinion wasn't as valid. I think you were the one telling others that they cannot have an opinion.

You're right on target, and that's part of my point of the long post that you quoted saying that I needed Zoloft. They've got the Iraqi's to contend with...

Fine. But maybe that's why their mission sucks and is not workable at this point.

My targets are politicians hiding behind the soldiers, with their ridiculous statements.

Not the soldiers. Hell, I have a lot more empathy for them than that cunt Cheney does..

...but what do they have back home to look forward to? A vast sea of American's calling them "baby killers" and telling them that they can't finish their job....

That's it! Right there. you see, you've really grown to annoy me. Because you write a bunch of solid, if debatable points, then you go and make these retarded statements that have no basis in fact. NOBODY IS CALLING THEM "BABYKILLERS!" Okay, and extreme minority of very few. But the current anti-War movement has been largely pro-soldier, seeing them as victims, not the perpetrators...

"They can't finish their job?" Maybe their job sucks. Maybe most of them, I suspect, think that this thing is a sick joke not worthy of getting blown to hell for?

Because that's how they see this, that's how it translates to their ears.

Who is "they?" Who do you have a right to speak for, other than yourself?

I keep hearing how this war is like the Vietnam war, well you're damn right....but it's ALL of the Vietnam war, not just the reason we went there. It's the aftermath too. Count on it, when these soldiers do finally come home, it'll be like 1975 all over again. No welcome home, and all because they were SENT there. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I can tell their gov't is already underfunding their health-care.

And what does this have to do with the current state of affairs?

My whole point? Don't you think we're alienating the same people we claim to be trying to save?

No. Actually, yes. I think we're alienating them by not debating this enough. The cost of this War in blood and treasure. And the retarded statements of a pResident that is only interested of saving his legacy, and not offering any real solutions to exiting Iraq, so he can pin it on the Democrat that follows...

Isn't that fucking disgraceful? It is to me!

Of course you do. And that's why I mentioned Scientology....It's all conspiracy unless it's aligned with your way of thinking.

Whatever. If soldiers in Iraq started an anti-War website called www.getusout.org, they be charged with sedition though. But some yahoos, who may or may not be soldiers, can run around trying to blame Democrats, the party that has been out of power for years until last Nov., for all their troubles. I find that very suspicious.

"Inventing" US War crimes? Um, that's not what I said at all...I said 3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

"Crazy watchdog organizations?" Oh come the fuck on baby! The military investigates its own! Did anyone make up the fact that a few US troops raped a 14-year old girl, then killed her and her entire family? What are we supposed to do? Cover this up so we can show the insurgents that their propaganda is right and make MORE insurgents to kill more of our guys.

BTW, the media also reported that US troops saved a Sunni girl form being raped by our "allied" Shiite run security forces.

Do you know what kind of cred that gives us with the Sunnis we're fighting?

I can't help how you translate shit Nick.

Well, what can I say...

We didn't find any chemical weapons? So where's the Chlorine gas, that's being used right now, coming from? But does it really matter? If I were able to prove it through some article or video all of you would dismiss it as being "Busheep" propaganda.

Um, the chlorine is the kind used in pools. You just get a lot of it together and put it next to a big explosive, and wallah, you have a homemade chemical weapon. This was not what we were looking for...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.



BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

Dude, the only ass you "hand" is the one you pry your head out of, dickweed...

And thanks for offering substance to this debate

I mean, I know you're in awe that someone can actually post more than three sentences, or even three coherent words, for a post without the aid of a cut and spam article.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.



BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

uh, number one, read the next sentence

and #2

I don't recall her making any decent retorts to me.

Man you're fuckin clueless.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Nobody is handing anyone their ass.

They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party".

At least they're consistent.

What are you talking about? Give me a fuckin break.



Your cliched view of this topic is cute sometimes, but this is big boy talk. I tell BBB the same thing all the time and he doesn't get it. He keeps running his yap.

Like GS mentioned earlier, I gave you a couple good sentences to chew on, and all you could come back to me with was clarifying the author of the article? Like I couldn't read that at the top of the post?

Like I said, give me a fuckin break.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Dude, the only ass you "hand" is the one you pry your head out of, dickweed...

And thanks for offering substance to this debate

I mean, I know you're in awe that someone can actually post more than three sentences, or even three coherent words, for a post without the aid of a cut and spam article.

What are we gonna do Nick? After reading this thread, its evident that MANY people are totally removed from reality and have nothing left to say.

Really, the debate in here is pathetic these days. I don't say that to insult (very much), I say it to give you people a kick in the ass!!

Read some articles with facts. Try to put together a coherent viewpoint on your own.