So I watched "Sicko" tonight.......

[DEMON CUNT]

CIA World Fact Book: Infant mortality rate ranked by country. Note where the United States and Canada rank.

[FORD]

Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
Please do elaborate, kind sir...

February 17, 1971
5:26 pm - 5:53 pm
Oval Office
Conversation 450-23

John D. Ehrlichman: On the—on the health business—

President Nixon: Yeah.

Ehrlichman: —we have now narrowed down the vice president's problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser's Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, “Well, I don't think they'll work, but if the president thinks it's a good idea, I'll support him a hundred percent.”

President Nixon: Well, what's—what's the judgment?

Ehrlichman: Well, everybody else's judgment very strongly is that we go with it.

President Nixon: All right.

Ehrlichman: And, uh, uh, he's the one holdout that we have in the whole office.

President Nixon: Say that I—I—I'd tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it's, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I'm not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.

Ehrlichman: This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am—

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: This—this is a—

President Nixon: I don't [unclear]—

Ehrlichman: —private enterprise one.

President Nixon: Well, that appeals to me.

Ehrlichman:Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can—the reason he can do it—I had Edgar Kaiser come in—talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because—

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: —the less care they give them, the more money they make.

President Nixon: Fine. [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] and the incentives run the right way.

President Nixon: Not bad.

Not a crook, huh?

[matt19]

Thats fucking pathetic. Amazingly fucked up, great heathcare system there redball?

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
CIA World Fact Book: Infant mortality rate ranked by country. Note where the United States and Canada rank.

Just a few points I'd like to throw in.

Infant mortality is seen as the most accurate simple statistic to judge healthcare. From memory I remember posting a while back that in his Stupid White Men book Moore quoted stats that showed Detroit as being worse for this than most 3rd world countries.

The thing was that Detroits figure were really shit but Moore lied about them to make them even worse. This was straight stats just a google click away. I don't know why he feels he always has to overegg his shit. It gives his opponents huge ammo even when his general point is right.

Secondly I'm not sure about Germany but in France, the UK and Canada who are all generally providing better healthcare overall to people and are comparable everyone seems to be pissed off about the provision of healthcare. Complaints are not unique to the US model.

Saying that paying the government to provide free or socialised healthcare turns you into a communist country is obviously just silly. It's like as someone said noone would want privitised military or police. Paying the government in taxes to provide all your healthcare is just like a big insurance company rather than lots of companies.

I think it comes down to this.

Anything to do with government means that money is wasted and pissed away. Huge public shit always wastes money. Look at all the money that the US military pisses away. The UK health serivice was famously the second largest employer in the world after the Russian Army.

Flipside is that private has to include profits, companies ducking obligations where possible, needless tests etc etc. Like your bank the time you need them is when they are least likely to want to help you. What seems to happen in the US is not a free market because it costs so much to get elected ineveitably the health insurance companies can buy your politicians to a degree. So instead of free market v big government you end up with the worst of both.

My gut instinct is actually pretty libertarian but there has to be a moral aspect to healthcare. It's one of the few things I think government is there to do because otherwise you get huge unfairness. It's also odd to me that so many people that have a heart attack about 8 week abortions don't give a flying fuck if the kid is 10 times more likely to die later on of 'natural causes' than theirs.

Also without seeing this film yet, it does seems to me that folk in the US are getting ripped off. You pay more than anywhere else yet it is delivering worse than most of Western Europe.

There is no easy answer, personally I think some sort of hybrid system is probably best but the bottom line is that the most important thing any government can do is provide or set up an environment whereby your healthcare works. Everything else is window dressing when you or your kids are sick.

Cheers!

[TongueNGroove]

Originally posted by Nitro Express


We need regulation to bring our healthcare back to the affordable, free market system it was in the past.

Umm, do you even have a clue what you are talking about? We need "Regulation" to bring back the "Free Market" system?

You know these pharmasutical companies come up with all these Amazing drugs because of one reason, to make money. If you "Regulate" what they can charge for said drugs then you just took the motivation to invent the drugs right out from under them. Therefore you can forget about having any new life saving drugs.

You know why you can buy drugs cheaper in Canada? Because the drugs are developed and made in America and Americans pay full retail which is where these companies get most of their profits. They then sell the drugs to other countries at a reduced rate.

Canada has a socialized medical system, how many great drugs and surgical procedures have they invented?

[Angel]

Originally posted by TongueNGroove
Canada has a socialized medical system, how many great drugs and surgical procedures have they invented?

Ummmm.... for starters:

Insulin is a great drug.

Pacemakers (which, of course, require surgery).

[DLRdelight!]

Originally posted by Redballjets88
i dont know the subject, nor do i really care bc it is politics and it is BS and it is biased and it is not effecting my life.

typical 19 year old set of mind. grow up a bit man. im 19 and im already thinking of how to save money, where to invest it, how to make sure i retire with money and not work until im 80. yeah no one likes politics but at least be aware of whats going on

[TongueNGroove]

Well, those are nice inventions, but Canada didn't even have it's Socialized medical heatlh care system in place until the late 1960's....long after those were invented.

In doing some research on that subject I found way too many articles saying how bad Canada's sytem is...10-28 weeks to get an MRI? You'd be dead by then.

Here is a great article on the subject http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

[FORD]

Another shining example of the Libertarian dreamworld.......

The "free market" does not exist. Humana/HCA, Kaiser Permante, and the like are HUGE corporations with deep ties to the government. You can't start up "Joe's mom n pop Health Care Clinic" and compete with that.

Just as it is with oil companies, these mammoth corporations, along with the pharmaceuticals and the insurance industry are in collusion to keep profits high, and actual care given as low as possible.

The purpose of a for profit business is to make money. That's the only thing the shareholders care about. And that's precisely why some things should NEVER be a for profit business.

[Redballjets88]

Originally posted by DLRdelight!
typical 19 year old set of mind. grow up a bit man. im 19 and im already thinking of how to save money, where to invest it, how to make sure i retire with money and not work until im 80. yeah no one likes politics but at least be aware of whats going on

i am aware about whats going on, and i am saving money...for college....but at the same time im not worrying about what i will be doing at 65 or 80 bc when you're 19 you're supposed to have fun, not worry

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by TongueNGroove
Umm, do you even have a clue what you are talking about? We need "Regulation" to bring back the "Free Market" system?

You know these pharmasutical companies come up with all these Amazing drugs because of one reason, to make money. If you "Regulate" what they can charge for said drugs then you just took the motivation to invent the drugs right out from under them. Therefore you can forget about having any new life saving drugs.

You know why you can buy drugs cheaper in Canada? Because the drugs are developed and made in America and Americans pay full retail which is where these companies get most of their profits. They then sell the drugs to other countries at a reduced rate.

Canada has a socialized medical system, how many great drugs and surgical procedures have they invented?

I'm not sure that most drugs are invented in the US. Most drugs are created by a few big multinational companies. Secondly did you know that these companies spend 15 or 20% of their income on R&D but 30 or 40% on marketing?

[Angel]

Originally posted by TongueNGroove
Well, those are nice inventions, but Canada didn't even have it's Socialized medical heatlh care system in place until the late 1960's....long after those were invented.

In doing some research on that subject I found way too many articles saying how bad Canada's sytem is...10-28 weeks to get an MRI? You'd be dead by then.

Here is a great article on the subject http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

Those were just two examples off the top of my head. There are numerous surgical procedures AND Pharmaceutical R&D other than those, including in the area of stem-cell research. Of course, there are problems with the system, it's been underfunded and over-abused for too many years.

A 10-28 week MRI wait would NOT be for anything life threatening... but if you had a fucked up knee or hip, yes... you would wait a long time for that MRI.

Our system is not perfect, but nobody goes without medical care.

I would more than likely be dead if I lived in the United States, I wouldn't have been able to afford my pacemaker.

And that isn't a great article on the subject, it's biased, written by someone who is against "socialized" medicine.

I don't have to read any articles to know the state of our health system. I've lived it, and live it everyday.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Angel
A 10-28 week MRI wait would NOT be for anything life threatening... but if you had a fucked up knee or hip, yes... you would wait a long time for that MRI.

Thats fucked up. How can anyone say thats better health care. So if you're not dying it's going to take you 10-28 weeks to see a doctor . I'll stick with what I have.

[scamper]

Everyone here complains how screwed up our government is, and I totally agree. That is why I don't want them telling me what doctor I'm going to see and when. Think about it. Get some insurance it's not the governments job to support us through life, get a job, make something out of yourself. The more taxes we pay the more socialist our country is, that's just a fact. Distribution of wealth, if that's your choice you're in the wrong country. I'm not saying move but if your not happy with the way the founding fathers set this place up, you might be in the wrong place.

[Angel]

Originally posted by scamper
Thats fucked up. How can anyone say thats better health care. So if you're not dying it's going to take you 10-28 weeks to see a doctor . I'll stick with what I have.

We can see doctors when we need to, and WE choose which doctor we see. The government does not tell us who, or when. Yes, you have to have a referral to a specialist, and it can take a long time to get in to see one, because we have a doctor shortage.

MRI's have long waiting lists for the same reason, staff shortages. If your medical problem is one of a nature where the pain is affecting your quality of life, you get in for the MRI much quicker. Personally, I have never heard of someone waiting 28 weeks for an MRI, and I have known many people who received MRI's within days.

The reason why our infant mortality rate is better than yours is because all women can access pre-natal care. All our citizens receive quality health care, as opposed to only those who can afford it.

Our system is more like a giant HMO... we don't have free health care, we all pay our "insurance premiums".