Military Deserters Once Again Flock to Canada

[Nitro Express]

I like the military oath that all who sign up swear. They swear and oath to defend the US Constitution. So if the Commander and Chief is no longer following the US Constitution, then I would say the soldiers are within their rights as individuals to refuse to serve. On the other hand is the Commander and Chief is following the US Constitution then not serving would be abandoment of duty.

It's all what orders you are following and Bush rolled over so many parts of the US Constitution. Another problem is the current President never produced a birth certificate to proof he's a natural born citizen. Of course the Supreme Court refused to open any cases brought up about this the simple fact that this will be an issue as times become harder and the president less popular.

So war and service is one thing and whether it's constitutional is another. That's really the main question here and why we live in dangerous times.

[FORD]

If you have ever read the PNAC agenda, you would know that this goes way beyond oil or the myth of "spreading Democracy in the middle east".

Basically it comes down to a handful paranoid Likud assholes in Israel, and their neocon PNAC counterparts in the US. They don't want any challenge to US/Israeli supremacy in the reason. Iraq supposedly had the "4th largest military on the planet" before Poppy's invasion, (though I don't know who exactly was counting) and thus they considered him a "potential" threat, even though his defensive capabilities were a shell of what they were before Poppy's invasion, or a lengthy war between Iraq and Iran.

They knew Saddam was not presently a threat. The UN inspections in the late 90's established that, as well as the second round of UN inspections in the months just before Chimpy's invasion. They didn't care. But they knew the American people wouldn't buy their half-assed case as it was. So they capitalized on the 9-11 fear propaganda.

Unfortunately, that's how they recruited a lot of people into this goddamn war. "Sign up and go kill them goddamn terrorists!!". And while Sarge certainly makes a valid point about fulfilling obligations, once you have signed on the dotted line, the BCE shouldn't have used false pretenses to start a war, nor to get volunteers for it.

[Nitro Express]

The military is a big machine with individual soldiers serving as parts of the machine. If the mechanical parts don't do their duty then the machine breaks down and doesn't work. Doing your duty is important.

The big question is whether the machine is ordered by someone who is following the US Constitution. The soldiers swear and oath to the Constitution. Such a mess should also be in the minds of the US citizens who vote. Putting the wrong people in office can abuse the machine.

[Nitro Express]

There is also the opportunity cost of freedom of choice. You go desert and go awol you can be labeled as a coward. You can be thrown in jail. In the old days they shot or hung you. Or you can escape a bad system you no longer wanted to be a part of and started a new life. It's all relative and there is consequences. If the people view the war as a mistake they will welcome you eventually but if the people view you as a yellow belly coward then they will fucking tar and feather you. Plus, even if the people welcome you, Uncle Sam may still hunt you down.

[ELVIS]

Iraq supposedly had the "4th largest military on the planet" before Poppy's invasion, (though I don't know who exactly was counting)

It's not size that matters...

"Poppy" mowed 'em down while in retreat and got the hell out of there...

A good move if you ask me...

[FORD]

It's not size that matters...

"Poppy" mowed 'em down while in retreat and got the hell out of there...

A good move if you ask me...

Compared to what his idiot son did, perhaps. But it was still completely unnecessary. Especially since Poppy's own ambassador April Glaspie gave Saddam the green light to roll into Kuwait, who -as it turns out - were actually slant-drilling into Iraqi oil fields at the time, giving Saddam a legitimate reason to be pissed off at them.

[Kristy]

I would have liked to see Sarge's opinion on the story he posted.

Some of these deserters are just using the unjustness of this war
as an excuse to avoid fulfilling that they made...they should have thought about the possibility they might see action.

Exactly! While I will never agree with Bush's War - and this is Bush's War no matter who is in Office - I have little respect for a deserter. While never serving myself I'm sure the US Government made it crystal clear what might happen to you (i.e., advanced forms of death) when you sign be be in the military. In other words, they knew the shit they were getting into and people like Jeffery House are total assholes for telling them otherwise.

Iraq is America's Viet Nam of the 21st Century and to see the needless waste of life for oil greed embarrasses me as an American. But again, when you sign up to join you're in for the long haul no matter if the situation is war or peacetime; it's like a doctor walking out on your open heart surgery because the sight of human organs grosses him the fuck out. Little respect for these people, indeed.

[ELVIS]

Just listen to the beverly Hillbillies theme song...

Black gold, Texas tea...


Sad but true...

[mwsully]

Exactly my point. You volunteer , you fulfill your commitment or pay
the price. If a soldier said fuck this, it's wrong but took a stand and
didn't run I could understand.Even if they said they were scared but
didn't run.

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.

[BITEYOASS]

It seems to be a dumb idea to desert to Canada when the PM is pals with the Chimp. I did my obligation in Iraq, and hoped like hell I wouldn't be called up again after the IRR portion of my contract ended. If that had happened, then I would have smoked a joint and walked the streets of a party town naked, rather than do something stupid like desertion.

[Angel]

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.

so, you think another fucking country should have to take them in and support them?

[alicebowie]

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.

Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.

[mwsully]

so, you think another fucking country should have to take them in and support them?

That wasn't my point; my point was focused on conditions in which someone is justified to break a contract.

Whether or not Canada allows them to stay, I have no opinion on that.

[mwsully]

Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.

Unfortunately though, not everyone has foresight enough, especially 18-19 year-olds. And unfortunately, most young people do not thoughtfully consider their options when graduating high school. I would also say most young people who go into the military see the government as trustworthy enough, i.e. they'll uphold their side of the contract.

I stand what I said before: the military is a business and they will say whatever attracts young people: opportunity, money, prestige, respect and adventure.

I'm not saying entering the military is bad, but I think they need to be clearly upfront and tell it like it is to prospective students. Maybe then they'll able to separate those who are dedicated and those who were clearly disillusioned.

[Nickdfresh]

Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.

There was a draft during Vietnam which changes things drastically...

I think we could make the argument that if we had a draft now, the retarded second Gulf War would never have happened, even with the Freedom Fries clamor of chickenhawks everywhere...

This is why I believe we should still have a limited conscription/public service where young men and women must either serve in the Nat'l Guard or Reserves on a limited basis, or do some sort of public service...